23-05-2002 14:46									#1
	What's the optimal use of depotism? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Personnaly, I get to grow my cities pretty fast during (the beginning) of the game, so I think I stay in depotism pretty long, sometimes even into the industrial ages, I like depopulising my cities more then spending a lot of money on it, I'm not really a purist i guess

So my questionis, and i guess it depends on how much warmonger/ builder you are, how long do you guys stay in depotism?

	23-05-2002 15:05									#2
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I'm probably more of a builder than a warmongerer but recently I've been discovering the benefits of early ware to gain a territorial advantage. I tend to stay in despotism only for as long as it takes to get Monarchy or the Republic. Maybe I cost myself a lot by changing govts before I am ready but it seems the sensible thing to do imho.

	23-05-2002 16:56									#3
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I usually try to have plenty of cash on hand. If I am religious I switch to the first available government, Monarchy or Republic. If I am not religious, I switch to Republic and usually stay there.

	23-05-2002 16:56									#4
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Despotism is more advantageous for warmongering, but, as a builder, I switch to Republic as soon as possible. For me it is the only way to keep on in tech race. Furthermore, each time I tried an early war (I mean before industrial age ) I lost it. I definitely am not a warmonger. So, the only ways to win I go for are diplomacy and space race.

	23-05-2002 20:33									#5
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For a builder game with some early war I don't think monarchy is worth stopping off at on the way to republic. This is definitely true for non-religious civs. For a more aggressive game Monarchy is probably your mid game govt, but the factor you need to balance is relatively small gains in food and production against quite a large increase in the amount of support you need to pay, at least until your cities are greater than size 6. Despotism isn't as bad as with civ2; the ability to use 1 pop point for 20 shields is the best early game method of combating corruption, and the support allowance is generous when you have lots of small cities.

	23-05-2002 21:32									#6
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Even with the modified pop-rushing rules, it's VERY attractive (esp. for Religious Civs) to pop-rush the h#ll out of stuff in the ancient era (I'm talking an average of 3-4 pops per city...one for the library, one for the temple, and two troops). Given that you should be able to use the troops rushed to secure at least one luxury source, and assuming you start near one other, it's more or less a push on the unhappiness and the result is a boost in culture, more troops more quickly (which means you capture more enemy cities and territory more quickly, etc., etc.)....and then, at or soon after you GET the tech for Republic, you're in a position to make the switch.

-=Vel=-

	23-05-2002 21:50									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Even with the modified pop-rushing rules, it's VERY attractive (esp. for Religious Civs) to pop-rush the h#ll out of stuff in the ancient era (I'm talking an average of 3-4 pops per city...one for the library, one for the temple, and two troops). Given that you should be able to use the troops rushed to secure at least one luxury source, and assuming you start near one other, it's more or less a push on the unhappiness and the result is a boost in culture, more troops more quickly (which means you capture more enemy cities and territory more quickly, etc., etc.)....and then, at or soon after you GET the tech for Republic, you're in a position to make the switch. -=Vel=-

Good to see you back, Vel.

	23-05-2002 21:53									#8
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Thanks man...can't say that I'll be here toooooo too long....Candle'Bre is occupying almost every bit of time I can put together, but....the compulsion to head back to old and familiar stomping grounds was very strong today....

-=Vel=-

	23-05-2002 22:03									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Even with the modified pop-rushing rules, it's VERY attractive (esp. for Religious Civs) to pop-rush the h#ll out of stuff in the ancient era (I'm talking an average of 3-4 pops per city...one for the library, one for the temple, and two troops). Given that you should be able to use the troops rushed to secure at least one luxury source, and assuming you start near one other, it's more or less a push on the unhappiness and the result is a boost in culture, more troops more quickly (which means you capture more enemy cities and territory more quickly, etc., etc.)....and then, at or soon after you GET the tech for Republic, you're in a position to make the switch. -=Vel=-

No problem to manage the citizens' mood under Republic due to this pop-rush???

	23-05-2002 22:43									#10
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I've been warmongering lately, and my research path is:

bronze working
iron working
warrior code
masonry
horseback riding (at this point my neighbors become very unhappy)

Then, I click on Monarchy. Once I get there, I switch. Once I'm done fighting my ancient wars, I switch again to Republic and build. I hoard gold as a despot, usually researching at 10% from horseback riding onward, because I can beat tech out of the AI. I usually only start heavy research in the middle ages, as a republic.

I only poprush in corrupt cities, and usually only then to punch out a temple. Many captured cities poprush a spearman, then a temple. That's it though. My core cities never poprush.

-Arrian

	23-05-2002 23:06									#11
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Nahhh...never had any problem with it. By the time my ancient era wars have ended and I'm ready to go republic, enough time has gone by that I'm out of the penalty box for at least one of the rushes, and I've usually got 3-4 luxuries anyway so I keep them mind numbingly happy and gently make them forget about their earlier mistreatment....

I should note too that my pop rushing is *entirely* offensive in its nature. Pop rush the library and temple not for the bonus effects they give me, but for more culture, more quickly (offensive in the sense that my borders will expand faster, and I have a better chance of absorbing other cities), and two *offensive* units. They can build their defensive unit(s) at their own pace later...my main goal is to get the essential elements in place and get troops in the field. After that, they're free to operate at their own pace.

-=Vel=-

	23-05-2002 23:09									#12
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I still rush a lot, but it is not the nobrainer it once was with all cities. Without granaries rushing often buys you little in productive core cities in 1.21.

	24-05-2002 00:21									#13
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I stay in Despotism until:
1) A majority of my cities are size 7 or bigger; and
2) I have completed at least one wonder.

This is because I don't want to take a huge economy hit for switching, and I don't want to lose four precious turns of wonder production, especially in the ancient ages when it's questionable that I'll get any given wonder.

What this usually translates to is a switch to Monarchy sometime in the mid-middle ages. Once I have large economically vibrant cities and strong production under a Monarchy, I can properly race to all of the powerful late-middle ages wonders (Adam Smith's, Newton's, Magellan's, etc.)

Going straight to Republic has never really tempted me. For me the middle ages are very violent; all of the civs find each other and may or may not like each other, and I use my time under Monarchy to "round out" my empire, i.e. get a bit bigger and stronger, and get a foothold in all the terrain types that I missed in the expansion phase. Later, in the industrial age, I'll switch to Republic, shoot comfortably ahead in $ and tech, and limit myself to surgical wars with precise goals (take a wonder, take a luxury, take a few cities from one civ and give them to another, etc.)

Unfortunately that's when turns start to take a looong time, and I start to get bored, so by the modern age I'm back to Despotism, and back to 4000 BC.

	24-05-2002 07:29									#14
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i usually try to get currency first and build some markets in my bigger cities before leaving depotism. if i dont ive found my econmy comes crashing down. no cash means no research or military and that can get you dead fast. once there in place its republic for me for the rest of the game( unless im lucky enough to get a religious civ )

	24-05-2002 09:37									#15
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Maybe I'm "suboptimal" by choice, Like Arrian. I don't poprush.

My view on Despotism?

Go to war. That's what it's good for.

That being said, Monarchy's even better... switch over, ASAP.

	24-05-2002 13:03									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I've been warmongering lately, and my research path is: bronze working iron working warrior code masonry horseback riding (at this point my neighbors become very unhappy) -Arrian

I usually take the same route, depends on if you're going for the kill with a MW or a legionaire. I especially like the ancient game wars. do you build any (early) wonders (piramids) in the proces?

	24-05-2002 13:12									#17
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quote: Originally posted by V.O.C.'02 I usually take the same route...

Don't forget, that Arrian plays with Japan now and has The Wheel from beginning. If you plan to warmonger and are neither Japan nor have a bronze/iron related UU like the Zulus, Romans, or Persians, I suggest you to research The Wheel before all other techs. It gives not only the opportunity to prebuild cheap chariots, but also grants access to one of the most valuable (and often underestimated) resources of the game: Horses.

	24-05-2002 18:56									#18
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I don't see why players don't rush now. In earlier versions it was too powerful, admittedly, so some players opted not to use the feature. Then in 1.17 the penalties were severe enough to curtail most rushing, but now IMO it is reasonably balanced.

	24-05-2002 19:18									#19
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike I don't see why players don't rush now. In earlier versions it was too powerful, admittedly, so some players opted not to use the feature. Then in 1.17 the penalties were severe enough to curtail most rushing, but now IMO it is reasonably balanced.

I consider myself a benevolent leader, but will pop-rush on occassion -- when the situation requires it. Generally, I find that in an emergency, I can pop-rush the temple without adverse effect. The people will accept a little bit of the whip for the common good.

	24-05-2002 19:46									#20
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i pop rush my ass of, rather, i pop rush my people's asses off.

in most of my games, i stay a despot until i get communism. it really depends on the game, when i get monarchy or republic, i'm usually in the middle of a wonder race (sun tzu, or sistene), so i wont change unless i'm a religious civ.

other than that, i go despot -> communism because i love the pop rush . i may go republic if i want to be peaceful, but that doesnt happen too often.

	24-05-2002 20:04									#21
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I generally don't like rushing in productive cities, because I don't consider 20 shields for a pop point & 20 turns of unhappiness to be a fair trade in those cities.

VOC'02,

Sir Ralph is indeed correct, that research path is Japan-dependent. I would otherwise research the wheel first. I use the Mongol Horde approach, with a few swordsmen as backup.

There is only one ancient wonder that I will invest shields in if I'm playing warmonger - the Colossus. If I have a solid coastal city early on, I'll take a shot at it, because it's relatively small and the benifits last a long time. Any other wonders depend on leaders.

-Arrian

	24-05-2002 20:41									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Even with the modified pop-rushing rules, it's VERY attractive (esp. for Religious Civs) to pop-rush the h#ll out of stuff in the ancient era (I'm talking an average of 3-4 pops per city...one for the library, one for the temple, and two troops). Given that you should be able to use the troops rushed to secure at least one luxury source, and assuming you start near one other, it's more or less a push on the unhappiness and the result is a boost in culture, more troops more quickly (which means you capture more enemy cities and territory more quickly, etc., etc.)....and then, at or soon after you GET the tech for Republic, you're in a position to make the switch. -=Vel=-

Are you using Civ3 patched up with either 1.17f or 1.21f. If so how do you handle the terrible hit on moral when using excessive pop rushing? From what I understand, although I could me totally off base , is that pop rushing was severly penalized with the advent of 1.17f patch. Any thoughts?

	25-05-2002 03:39									#23
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HD: I believe that with 20 turns of penalty per rush, you can rush maybe three times before hitting the middle ages (and other gov't types), without compounding the penalty. Especially if you have a luxury or two around.

I rarely poprush, it makes me feel bad.

	25-05-2002 04:11									#24
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quote: Originally posted by MiloMilo I rarely poprush, it makes me feel bad.

Me too. But the people will understand a little discipline in an emergency; such as capturing an important city and pop-rushing the temple. I never pop-rush more than once per town, and rarely more than once or twice a game.

	25-05-2002 20:35									#25
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Pop-rushing is pretty rare in my 1.21 games, since they changed the first citizen to 20 shields from 40. Here are the only times I use it:

- A town with plenty of population but only producing 1 shield is 19 turns away from an Improvement I want (usu. Temple or Library).
- Dire emergencies.

Why else would I use it? Here's why I wouldn't:

- A town making 2 or more shields could finish the thing in 10 turns or less.
- Sacrificing > 1 citizen makes > 1 citizen unhappy for longer. ex. sacrificing 2 citizens makes 2 unhappy for 20 turns, 1 unhappy for another 20 turns after that.

I wish they would re-instate the 40-shield first citizen. Or, get rid of the time-cumulative unhappiness. It would make pop-rushing attractive again to me.

To answer your question, I will switch to Monarchy ASAP in most of my games. There are a few cases where I hold off under Despotism to the Republic, if my Despotism wars are prolonged, or I want to play peaceful over the middle ages & I have some luxuries.

I found one case where I was better off under Despotism than Monarchy, because I started on a peninsula and had few towns but many units. My corruption centre was stretched, so Monarchy didn't help corruption-wise. Also, I had no fresh water and poor terrain so my towns could not grow past size 6. Because of Despotism's higher military support, I made more money under Despotism, so I switched back.

	25-05-2002 20:55									#26
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I think it is more balanced now. With 40 shields for 1st person despotism is attractive for far too long.

	25-05-2002 21:22									#27
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In the ancient era, I only pop-rush temples when in disorder, or in captured cities.

I start by researching the wheel (warrior code if playing the Babs), follow up with horseback riding if playing the Iroquois, and then drop to 10% research set for monarchy, with an eye to buying iron working on the cheap for denial purposes. I start to research seriously again early in the middle ages, usually going up the less popular trees, and trading these techs along with the luxuries I've picked up via the ancient-era wars.

I usually switch to republic after my first round of wars if I have enough luxuries, and try to quickly make up for the economic hit with the increased production. If the wars never end - domination - I'll go to monarchy, with an occasional research stop in republic. If playing space race, my goal is to switch to democracy asap.

	26-05-2002 03:21									#28
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I usually hit Iron working then make a beeline for Monarchy. Then once in Monarchy stay until I control 1/2-2/3 the world and possibly switch to Communism. I never really pop-rush so the Paying to finish production works alot better for me. Especially since once you hit industrialization/communism you can usually get 200-300 gold/per turn for techs from civilizations. By the time I get Darwin's I am at 100% science and +600-800 gold per turn from other civs paying me off ;P. Monarchy rulez!

	26-05-2002 04:14									#29
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i love the pop rush option because i can go a long way away from my capital were theres heaps of corruption and hurry my stuff instead of waiting forever.
you can use this to get resouces or other things
i tend to stay into depostium untill im at feudlisum then i change to rebublic
somtimes i go to monarchy early if all my road networks are done
and i have a few happiness recouces

	26-05-2002 04:25									#30
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And it's DESPOTISM. Not depotism. Not depostism. Not depostium. Not deposism. Not despoticism. DESPOTISM.

Sorry.