16-05-2001 06:27									#1
	When will Nationalism be available? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Will Nationalism be able to be researched from the ancient age? (as it should be - romans had armies of legions)
THIS MY FRIENDS IS THE CRITICAL QUESTION...

	16-05-2001 07:03									#3
	Put an end to popups!

That is what I fear. Nationalism is certainly a modern phenomenon and thus your 17th century is probably right. But armies were around since war was invented! If army's can only be created unitl the 17th Century, if one civ fortuitously gets a general, he will be able to build a massive army and win the game before anyone else can even BUILD an army!

	16-05-2001 07:16									#4
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I'm sure they'd balance this sort of thing...

	16-05-2001 07:18									#5
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good question.
[This message has been edited by Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto (edited May 15, 2001).]

	16-05-2001 07:19									#6
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Perhaps they could make armies available from the start, for anyone who builds barracks, and has a high enough cultural value (thereby getting rid of the need for nationalism), but simply place arbitrary limits on the no. of units you can place in an army for each age to simulate technology's increasingly ability to allow for better communications...

	16-05-2001 08:50									#7
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Everything depends on the definition of "Nationalism"! I mean the Perians and the Babylonians had a sense of "National Identity" with Laws and a public sector and a King-if this is what Firaxis means as Nationalism, then it should be available for research almost immediately!
If however, they refer to the upsurge in "Ultra-Nationalism" that came about during the 18th-19th centuries, then this will make armies all but USELESS!!
For my money, I feel we should all pressure Firaxis to link Armies to a more realistic technology-like Mass Combat Tactics or Warrior Code.
Anyway, just my 2 cents worth.

The_Aussie_Lurker

	16-05-2001 09:20									#8
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The modern concept of a nation-state, and thus nationalism, began during the 30 Yrs War in Europe. In all times before, everyday people could really care less who ruled over their country, and didn't see much in common with one another. But the war brought about a feeling of sameness between people of the same nation. so I guess I'm saying that 17th century is right for the beginning of nationalism, maybe 18th if you were talking about when it became a real movement. It's interesting to note that real popular revolutions couldn't ever happen before nationalism. Although I'd fail to see what naitonalism and armies have to do with one another.

	16-05-2001 18:38									#10
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Well, I think we are referering to Nationalism as the notion which started in 17th century and materialized in the 18th Century. (Nationalism didn't even exist as a word before these dates I think).
Nationalism takes the meaning of the ideological concept that led to the creation of modern nation-states as we know them.

Scots and Israelis had (have) an ethnic identity.

	16-05-2001 20:21									#12
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Welp,

I'ts pretty obvious (if you read the GameSpot preview) that citizens can be imbued with a strong sense of cultural identity. Obviously much of this cultural identity depends on how good a job you do cultivating your cities.

But I would say that even if nationalism in the truest sense of the word isn't in the game, at the very least a form of distinct cultural patriotism exists. When your citizens are conquered by another civilization (i.e., the Scots example given), if they have a strong sense of distinct cultural identity they will be very difficult to assimilate.

Basically, I think that the game designers plan to address "nationalism" (or something at least similar) in an easy-to-understand, fun fashion. I don't think any more needs to be done by the creators of Civ3.