24-05-2002 10:29									#1
	MoO vs MoO 2 Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

After playing both for a bit I definitely prefer MoO much better:

• I love to have enromous fleets roaming around in the galaxy
• the tech tree in MoO is much better, and I can research multiple tech at the same time
• less micromanagement to deal with
• a much bigger galaxy
• tough planetary defenses

	24-05-2002 12:16									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Every thing you mentioned is correct and add in custom species. I have always said Moo was the best game of all, but I am waviering on this lately with the increased play of Moo2. The micromanagement is the one big edge for MOO. It is a lot easier to deal with and the tech tree is not the same all of the time, so you have that variable.

	24-05-2002 15:28									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I prefer MoO over MoO2 too.

Although MoO 2 is a good, albeit different game.

	24-05-2002 18:03									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I give the edge to Moo over Moo2 just because of the micromanagement. I was very disappointed in Moo2 because of this. Something tells me that things will not change in Moo3. Also liked building as many ships as I wanted. However, it was always quite scary to see the AI show up in your system with 1000's of ships when you barely had any.
I also never could beat the hardest level on Moo1, never have tried it yet in 2. But from the comments on this board, perhaps Moo2 is easier to beat?

R:PM

	24-05-2002 19:00									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Yup. Moo is great for micromanagement reduction. Also, the tech model is better. But fleet management and race picks make Moo2 the overall better game, I think.

	24-05-2002 21:06									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Moo(M),

You may be right considering that most of the comments on this board deal with Moo2; also that is what I am playing lately.

R:PM

	24-05-2002 21:45									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Very close. I like the tech tree and quick simplicity of Moo. But I like the race picks, better combat, and more depth of Moo2.

Probably Moo2, but I picked both

	25-05-2002 01:31									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I had a harder time beating Moo2 on a small universe at impossible level than Moo. The big reason was stealing. I never had much luck stealing in Moo2, but no problem in Moo. That allowed me to catchup. The other aspect is the ability to determine a good start in Moo. In Moo2, it is harder to tell if I have a good start or not. With a good location and decent player layouts you should always win at hard in Moo. In Moo2, I just can't tell soon enough if I have a chance or not. In other words I never lose in Moo, but can in Moo2.

	26-05-2002 08:10									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I vote for MOO.

UR, you had a good summary in your post. I just LOVE the idea of having multiple planets to deal with and being able to build outposts to extend my reach when there's no useful worlds. I kind of liked the STARLORDS thing where you could send a fuel ship to extend your reach.

the combat was better in moo2, too. much bigger battlefield and more options.

But GAK! the micromanagement, the ship limitations, and where the heck did my tech tree go?

In short, I loved some of the innovations, but couldn't stand the package they came in.

there was just the something that keeps you going.... MOO was my first allnighter. my first 20 hour game when I had kids (don't tell my wife, she was out of town). when it came time to hit the next turn button in moo2, it didn't have the same pull.

Ahhhh..., but MOO!! seeing a fleet of a thousand little ships headed for your upstart colony and thinking how your 2 titan class ships in orbit are going to defend. a bevy of graviton beams on those ships would solve the problem, unless the attackers are alkari, in which case I'm in for a fight anyway.

I could send a nearby fleet to handle them, but they might devestate my colony and fly away. at which point I would really get teed off.

I would really get irate when I send my fleet to flatten them (remember to send enough to handle the 40+missile bases they will certainly have), and they declare war and complain of MY unprovoked aggressiveness!!!!

the somebody else gets elected master of orion and I go down in flames trying to hold the rest of them off.

WOW! what a game!

	26-05-2002 09:07									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Ah, the picture is good. fleets to large to show the number, stacks of thousands...
Beast, you may like Stars, it has a concept where you can run out of fuel. You can have tankers come along to allow you to go full speed or go slower to extend the range, even have engines that can extract fuel as they go.

	26-05-2002 16:23									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

One of the things I really liked about Moo2 was the lack of tankers. That always bored me to death. Probably single greatest reason I gave up on SE IV - too much fuel management, too little game.

	26-05-2002 17:56									#12
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Ah, the picture is good. fleets to large to show the number, stacks of thousands... Beast, you may like Stars, it has a concept where you can run out of fuel. You can have tankers come along to allow you to go full speed or go slower to extend the range, even have engines that can extract fuel as they go.

Yes, I think I would, at that. I'll make a search to see if it's downloadable somewhere.

I liked all the references that were made to it in the gaming mags durin previews of Supernova Genesis.

I think they said it was an old shareware program.

I'm off to go hunt!

	26-05-2002 21:21									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

www.crisium.com for Stars! They have a great downloadable guide. The manual was well done. I am still hoping for SuperNova.
Space Empires can get tedious. I like to pick the extra range trait as running out of fuel is deadly. Ships getting crippled and can't move is deadly too. I usually make a few repair cruisers to send with any fleet to fix any broken items.

	27-05-2002 02:43									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It's a hard question :P
Well, I love both MoO and MoO 2
Starlord rocks too, of course ;-)

I also played SE4 and well... it's great! Everything I ever wanted in a 4x game is there... well... but it makes no fun :|
If I want to lead an empire I don't want to make that stupid micromanagement ( and I don't trust those ministers ).
That's what I hate in MoO2. It's very nice to move the people from farmers to workers to scientists at the beginning to optimize your production but it SUCKS when you have more than 10 planets... And those building queues... omg :P

I hope MoO3 will be a bit more intelligent... That command point allocation sounds like you don't have to do much micromanagement and can concentrate for example on the important battles. And that's we want :P

Mmmh... does anyone know whether it is planned that you can play one single empire with other (human) players? Could be interesting, too...

All in all I would say moo is better in bigger galaxies, while moo2 makes way more fun in a small galaxy.

	27-05-2002 02:51									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I wish for bigger galaxies too. But the MM tools have to be there - I seldom use more than 10 colonies in Moo2, even in huge universes...

	27-05-2002 04:26									#16
	Support Apolyton

10?
Oh well, I hate playing huge universes :P Well, I am more the multiplayer type...

I tend to give minister control to the planets... Well, but I have always in mind that's not optimal and I have a bad feeling :|

	27-05-2002 04:28									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

It is funny, but you are right, SE3 and 4 have tons of cool stuff, but they are not that much fun. Not sure why.
I mostly play on small to avoid most of the leg work. I am not holding my breath for any game that can mitigate the micromanagement and still be fun. Stars tried by, making it so you could create a model queue that can be use on every planet.
A bit more fun and less work is STUN (starships unlimited), it is real time, but very little management needed.

	27-05-2002 05:04									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yeah, getting the MM balance between control and busy work is a difficult task indeed in any 4x game, given how the proper trade-off shifts around all the time.

That's why I'm so disappointed Moo3s IFPs are out - I'm not so sure they'd actually work, but even an offhand chance they would was great.

	28-05-2002 19:26									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

So what it is that makes thee games fun?

I like making my own race.
I like designing my own ships.
I like tactical combat. (Although for TBS, he who goes first, has to be fixed)
I like having some control over my planets (more like MOO less like 2)
I like determining the course of my research (but for playability sake why can't it be somewhat random especially in the quality department: instead of speed 3 you might get speed 2.5 or 4)
There is not a planetary combat model that is good (prolly cuz no one has any idea how it should work).

What did I forget (just remember one man's peach is another man's pit)?

R:PM

	28-05-2002 20:56									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think it is like porn, no one can define what it is, but they know it when they see it.
The one item in your list, tactical combat, I think Moo2 should have stuck with the defender goes first (patches changed it). The way some resolve it is to use inititive. If that is equal, then on neutrual ground, let the attacker go first, otherwise the defender.

	28-05-2002 22:23									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Defender first would have been interesting. Offensive weapons were too effective in endgame. One cruiser shouldn't be able to take out 5 doom stars in one round.

	28-05-2002 23:12									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That is why the onus should be on the aggressor. It is one thing when a massive fleet shows up and if you have all your forces mustered, and still you could not defeat it, fine. When a force shows up and you could defend, but they go first and then wipe you out or reduce you so much you lose, I hate that part. Like you say it is not hard to do late in the game. That is why I view the warp device as so important. If you do not allow another planet to be occupied in any of your systems and have the warp built, they can not get there without you being able to get some defenders in place. I leap ahead to get the Star Gate so I can send everything if need be.

	29-05-2002 00:07									#23
	Put an end to popups!

That's why I like the idea of at least semi-real time combat. Plus keeping defensive abilities in line with offensive.

Your idea is a good fix for Moo2's problem. Although it would make invading a warp-interdictor/star gate race near impossible. Phased cloak would actually become useful

	29-05-2002 02:47									#24
	Get a bigger avatar today!

GW, Phased Cloak is already useful. In combination with TWF, that is...

	29-05-2002 02:58									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

With that case I can only see it being useful if it allows you to rephase after firing, but before they can fire at you.

Once I found out that the AI can see cloaked ships, I stopped using it. I did use it once with good success in my attempt to attack Antares and capture all ships with only one doom star.

	29-05-2002 03:18									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

The Phase Cloak/Time Warp combo allows de-cloaking, shooting and re-cloaking in one turn, yes. It's a total gamebraker, but at least it's end-tech.

	31-05-2002 09:57									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper The Phase Cloak/Time Warp combo allows de-cloaking, shooting and re-cloaking in one turn, yes. It's a total gamebraker, but at least it's end-tech.

Thats before the patch though I believe. Post 1.31 the patch puts your second TWF move/fire phase after the end of the oppositions turn - hence no re-cloaking until the after you've been attacked.

	31-05-2002 13:13									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

No, it works just as great after the patch. You just have to phase differently.

Turn begins.
Your move. (Do nothing)
AI move. (Can do nothing)
Your move. (Uncloak, fire)

Next turn.
Your move. (Cloak)
AI move. (Can do nothing)
Your move (Uncloak, fire)

and so on...

They tried to fix the breakage, but they failed miserably.

	31-05-2002 13:22									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

Moo1 is great:
a) low micromanagement
b) huge fleets
c) pure strategy
d) multi-goal research

Moo2 is great:
a) upgradeable ships
b) leaders
c) multi-planetary systems
d) race generator

Thus I choose both

	31-05-2002 13:28									#30
	Put an end to popups!

quote: No, it works just as great after the patch. You just have to phase differently.

Doh!
Heh, I never thought of trying it that way, er, I mean I think thats a cheap tactic that exploits a game bug.

Actually I've never used the phase cloak before on anything except a scout which has nothing else but a wide-area jammer and the warp disruption thingummy.
I'm too fond of my super-defense Doomstars which already have all of the specials filled up.