25-05-2002 03:22									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin That might have something to do with the fact that many of the NPP acciedents happened in the US have been caused by lack of inspections (i.e. the acciedent in Davis-Besse earlier this year).

1. Accident and incident analysis is a complicated thing. How do you know lack of inspection was the root cause. Poor personnel slection and training could also be a cause.

2. There are other reasons for this attitude in civilian power.
A.Union control and mindset
B."Sleepy" nature of the conventional utility power industry
C.lack of a strong advocate for personal accountability (i.e. Rickover)

quote: So my point is that why not head for energy forms that really are safer than nuclear power. It's far more safe to use solar power or to build windmills. And it's still free and we won't run out of wind. As a matter of fact the Earth is getting windier. I do understand partially why some want to have NPP's, but at least I prefer to live next to a hydro plant, than an NPP. I suppose even Stefu agrees with me. Or... Those were my two cents.

Cost is the major problem here. Even in more suitable climates, solar power is not cost-effective. In Finland it would be ridiculous. Bunch of Nokia boot wearing, rain enduring Finns never see the sun very much...

	25-05-2002 04:07									#62
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wind harvesters are poluting the lanscape (it is a significant way of polution in tourism countries) so there are only going to be a few in croatia

and chernobil was a human error. they were experimenting with how far they can go with something.. it could have happened anywhere

finland is pretty big so if you grind the waste and spread it around equally, there wont be much rise in average radiation

	25-05-2002 04:11									#63
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion wind harvesters are poluting the lanscape (it is a significant way of polution in tourism countries) so there are only going to be a few in croatia

I don't know... I think they look nice a kind of natural harmony about tall symmetrical fans turning in the wind...

anyways krpmfff in order for them not to take space maybe they can be installed in regions which are deserted or not much frequented, like side of mountains or hills for example (where you also have more powerful winds)

	25-05-2002 04:11									#64
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and believe it or not-banana powah is a good option

its called bioenergy

brasilians power quite some of their cars on metanole which they get from sugar cane. you finns need to genetically engineer some high-power plant to grow in your freezing country (it can be done, what was that russian who managed to grow oranges in siberia)

	25-05-2002 04:14									#65
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oh no! I m online with two mega-trolls at the same time-again

	25-05-2002 04:17									#66
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion oh no! I m online with two mega-trolls at the same time-again

Peace be with you my balkan brother

	25-05-2002 04:23									#67
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is that you? I imagined you slightly different.

	25-05-2002 04:23									#68
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i've lost the beard, other than that yes

	25-05-2002 04:24									#69
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion and believe it or not-banana powah is a good option its called bioenergy brasilians power quite some of their cars on metanole which they get from sugar cane. you finns need to genetically engineer some high-power plant to grow in your freezing country (it can be done, what was that russian who managed to grow oranges in siberia)

The Brazilian experiment has been a commerical failure. In the US, biomass actually takes more energy to produce than it gives off. (See recent articles in the Wall Street Journal past 2 days.) It's just a subsidy for the grain farmers. Finland would be even worse off, since it doesn't have the solar input that Brazil has to grow biomass.

	25-05-2002 04:24									#70
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more like this

Attachment: patmosmonk.jpg
This has been downloaded 65 time(s).

	25-05-2002 04:25									#71
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Peace be with you my balkan brother

We are trying to be serious, here. Stefu doesn't like threadjacking...

	25-05-2002 04:26									#72
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you forgot the sun glasses. (they'd look cool with the beard in that case)

	25-05-2002 04:26									#73
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quote: Finland would be even worse off, since it doesn't have the solar input that Brazil has to grow biomass

yes but finns are reasonable people. I m sure they could talk some plants into growing faster. they have nothing better to do anyway

	25-05-2002 04:29									#74
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quote: Peace be with you my balkan brother

how about "I surrender"

	25-05-2002 04:29									#75
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ok, enough threadjacking

sorry stefu it was them not me

	25-05-2002 04:30									#76
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see GP, you try to be nice and they think they have "won" the Saint Bartholomew trolling night

	25-05-2002 05:02									#77
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 see GP, you try to be nice and they think they have "won" the Saint Bartholomew trolling night

The Amie won the trolling contest. You must bow to my superior time zone...

	25-05-2002 05:39									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Deaths caused by Western nuclear power plants=0. Zippo. Zilch. Nada. None.

There were 3 deaths in the reactor explosion at SL-1 (Idaho) in 1961.

	25-05-2002 06:43									#79
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Even in a country as large as the USA there are very few sites where wind power farms can be built and be cost effective. Also a wind driven turbin is not a quite "Dutch Windmill" they produce a lot of noise so they cannot be placed near populated areas.

	25-05-2002 06:48									#80
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Well, hopefully we'll have fusion power not too late, and we'll be able to build fusion-powered plants all over the Earth, putting a final end to this fight over nuclear power.

	25-05-2002 06:52									#81
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Also Wind Turbins eat lots of birds! Build enough of them and you will never have bird poop on your can again.

	25-05-2002 06:58									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Well, hopefully we'll have fusion power not too late, and we'll be able to build fusion-powered plants all over the Earth, putting a final end to this fight over nuclear power.

We could use the "Mr. Fusion" from Back to the Future

People keep saying fusion is around the corner. I've been hearing this for a long time, now...decades in fact.

	25-05-2002 07:06									#83
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quote: Originally posted by GP We could use the "Mr. Fusion" from Back to the Future People keep saying fusion is around the corner. I've been hearing this for a long time, now...decades in fact.

Yup. We're very close, but it's always some little thing that's just preventing us to make it works. The kind of little thing that doesn't look very difficult to fix, but that in fact delay the advances for decades...

My uncle was working on the Megajoule laser, and it's extremely frustrating to know how close we are from the fusion and we can't use it...

	25-05-2002 08:11									#84
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--"It's far more safe to use solar power or to build windmills."

Same arguments every time someone mentions nuclear power...

Solar is still highly inefficent. It doesn't do well on the cost/benefit scale for large areas.
Wind has its own problems, including the rather limited areas it's actually useful in. Most of those aren't really near population centers.

--"As a matter of fact the Earth is getting windier."

Yes, more politicians and activists every year...

Wraith
Strip mining prevents forest fires.

	25-05-2002 08:30									#85
	Re: New nuclear power plant to Finland! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

What, Finland is capable of designing and constructing nuclear power plants on its own, without any help from abroad?? I don't believe that.

	25-05-2002 08:33									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Yup. We're very close, but it's always some little thing that's just preventing us to make it works. The kind of little thing that doesn't look very difficult to fix, but that in fact delay the advances for decades... My uncle was working on the Megajoule laser, and it's extremely frustrating to know how close we are from the fusion and we can't use it...

We're not close. If we were there would be commercial interest...

	25-05-2002 08:36									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Yup. We're very close, but it's always some little thing that's just preventing us to make it works.

Little? For the technical breakeven maybe. For an actual comercial plant its a horror story. Hot plasma and expensive equipment that can't handle heat. Lithium to absorb neutrons and get more tritium and it must be near the fusion. I suppose the laser systems have a better chance of being practical but the tokomaks are an engineering nightmare.

It sure would answer a lot of problems if it can ever be put into practice. Too bad cold fusion was just bad science.

	25-05-2002 23:18									#88
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quote: Originally posted by GP nuclear power is not a walk in the park (has real dangers) but it is a pretty good method for power production. Much of the cost comes from regulatory methods which are stringent but are not properly focused. For instance in US civilian nuclear power, there is huge emphasis on automatic systems (design) rather than on having more intellegient operators. The US Navy in contrast has simpler plants but has more capable operators.

Easier for US Navy to get highly competent, motivated operators. In civilian world people are bigger ****-ups in general, and those that aren't don't go for 30 000$ p.a. salaries...

	25-05-2002 23:37									#89
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Easier for US Navy to get highly competent, motivated operators. In civilian world people are bigger ****-ups in general, and those that aren't don't go for 30 000$ p.a. salaries...

I typed some impressions about this issue (staffing for civilian power plants) within other comments. I have had several friends who left USN and worked in civilian power.

The answer is to treat these people different than has generally been the practice in the utility industry. There is talent out there. There is even decent money to pay for it. The culture has to change and the selection processes have to change.

	25-05-2002 23:52									#90
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Maybe, but perhaps high performance also has a lot to do with the pride that people feel to be in USN. Different when it's a job you're doing for a living. Why are private security guards jokes when compared to real cops?

You can try to culture such a feeling among your employees, but I doubt you can recreate feeling of fighting for your country.