25-05-2002 02:52									#1
	Tech Stealing Rule Clarification Please Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Here's the rule stated in the PBEM tourney rules:

If an aggressive probe action (anything except infiltration) is used on a faction you have a treaty or pact with, you must select 'Declare Vendetta' in the dialog box that appears afterwards, and notify the victim of your transgression, unless you have received permission in advance. No notification is required in other cases.

The bug, as I understand it, is that when you probe and steal a tech from a human player. Instead of notifying the victim that a tech has been stolen, the game notifies you. Therefore, to keep things fair, you must declare vendetta, for the victim.

My question, is about notifying the victim of your transgression. What exactly do you need to tell the victim? Do you simply say I stole 1, 2, 3... techs from you every time you steal from him? Do you have to specify which techs? since the game automatically does so if the AI steals from you. Do maps fall in this category? I would think so, since it's under research data.

Note: I assume that notifying the victim only occurs when you get the declare vendetta option and after you declare vendetta, because it is possible that you might not get caught. Although, I don't think it's ever happened to me.

Also, the rule states that you only have to declare vendetta if you are treatied or pacted with the victim. Does this mean you can freely steal from people you are at vendetta with or blood truce with without telling them anything?

	25-05-2002 03:42									#2
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I don't know that I've ever seen this discussed. I'm sure it isn't addressed explicitly in any of the rule sets I know.

Having said that, I've always played that when you probe somebody, you tell them what you did (except for infiltration) regardless of your diplomatic status. I should add that this is only in the games that the standard 'choose vendetta option' rule is being used. If you are playing a game with 'anything goes' wrt probes, obviously you needn not say a word.

	25-05-2002 04:52									#3
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My reading (and ruling in any game I'm CMN'ing) would be:

If no treaty or pact, then anything goes - no need to notify of anything

If treatied or pacted, and infiltration only, no consequences.

If steal tech or maps, you'll get the erroneous notification, and must choose "Declare Vendetta", unless the theft is by prior arrangement. Notify the other party by e-mail or in diplo box (e-mail if under sunspot quarantine) simply that you have extracted highly confidential data from him - I would say there's no need to specify maps or tech, or what tech

If assassination of scientists, or introduction of a genetic plague, I'm not sure what happens, but the results , while impacting the other player (loss of research points or population) may not be readily obvious, so I would rule that notification should be given in those circumstances.

If mind controlling a base, the results speak for themselves - the base has changed hands by the time the offended party opens the next turn.

G.

	25-05-2002 04:55									#4
	Re: Tech Stealing Rule Clarification Please Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by smhfan86 since the game automatically does so if the AI steals from you.

It does? I don't recall seeing a message. I know that CIV II gives the message, but I can't remember ever seeing one in smac/x

G.

	25-05-2002 17:35									#5
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Googlie: Yes it does. Along the lines of "The (faction) have downloaded our files on (tech)".

Anyway, I will agree with Googlie on the rest - just a short notice giving the general gist of what has happened. Basically I just want to make sure that players know when they have a new vendetta, so it does not come as a big surprise when they open the commlink menu.

Notification on every probe, regardless of diplomatic status, would simulate usual game behaviour better, but I have never seen it used in any game I have been in (apparently Mongoose has) and have therefore not made it the rule.

Actually, it makes no sense to leave truce out of the rule as it stands - it has probably been that way since the original text (which I did not write). I will change that.

	25-05-2002 18:00									#6
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It's actually never been explicitly required, TC. It does serve for great taunting fodder. I will never forget opening the DW2000 turn to have JAMiAM (my erstwhile pactmate!) greeting me in the diplomacy box thanking me for my files on Pre-Sentient Algorithms and Orbital Spaceflight. lol He actually offered to reinstate the pact!


What was worse, he beat me to the Hunter and then 10 turns later he PB'd a forward base of mine....that STILL ticks me off, though it was two or three years ago!

	25-05-2002 19:15									#7
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Thanks for the response everyone.

Tau wrote: "Actually, it makes no sense to leave truce out of the rule as it stands - it has probably been that way since the original text (which I did not write). I will change that."

What exactly are you going to change?

	25-05-2002 19:40									#8
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See revised topped thread

	25-05-2002 20:24									#9
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I just added truce.

"...a faction you have a truce, treaty or pact with..."

	26-05-2002 03:29									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Tau Ceti Googlie: Yes it does. Along the lines of "The (faction) have downloaded our files on (tech)".

LOL - I guess I've never had a tech stolen in a single-player game vs. the AI

I find that hard to believe (my never having a tech stolen) - does the message come in the message box that you open each turn with? - or is it in the small yellow print? - or a box like the commlinks box?

	26-05-2002 03:36									#11
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It's in that tiny yellow print that always goes passt too fast to read.

I don't think it ever shows in the message box.

	26-05-2002 21:29									#12
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It must be over a year since my last serious SP game, but as far as I remember, it comes in a separate popup box with the probe image - followed by another popup with your diplomatic options if you were previously not at vendetta.

In MP, you only get the diplomatic options box, and it goes to the player whose turn is currently open, regardless of who the victim is. This can create some diplomatic problems occasionally, as you have no idea what has been done to whom - only by whom.