26-05-2002 06:41									#1
	for all those who think the AI does NOT cheat..pls read Full PM-box? Change here!

Now that i have you breathing heavy and ready to flame i would just like you to explain this little incident to me. (please)


its the year 1800 and greece is woefully behind in the tech race.
Its at war with 3 of 6 civs. the three that at are at peace with greece are me,a civ with 2 cities , and another civ with 1 city.

They have less tech than greece.

Now i wanted to give tech to greece, starting with steel, and ending up with mobile transportation so greece could defend itself better.

So i traded 5 techs to it for free. the 5th one was mobile ....

Now, as soon as i gave the civ (its the middle of my turn) mobile transportation...there was a pause in the game and then a drum beat.. and !WHOA! all of a sudden Greece had rocketry -- a tech that i needed.

***How the heck did greece get this tech on my turn --esp as the ***civs that could have given it were at war with it????????????


The annoying this is that greece wanted 4000 dollars from me even tho i had just given it 5 free techs. argh!

--------------------------------------
now if those 5 free techs counted towards teching turns for greece that is not fair either..as every time i get new techs i have to start turns over again.

-----------------------

and on funny note...i had killed off the entire zulu nation except for 1 settler and 1 imp. On the very next turn the ZULUs declared war on babylonia and were wiped out..depriving me of complete genocide. grrr

If the zulus had built a city inside the bab borders..i saw no sign. But i guess that is how it must have happened.



(and no..genocide is no joke...its actually a flippant statement brought on by that serious thread that questioned whether
assimilating other civs peoples was frying our brains IRL.


and you Americans..i hope you are having a great holiday!!! = )

	26-05-2002 07:01									#2
	Re: for all those who think the AI does NOT cheat..pls read Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Redstar Now, as soon as i gave the civ (its the middle of my turn) mobile transportation...there was a pause in the game and then a drum beat.. and !WHOA! all of a sudden Greece had rocketry -- a tech that i needed. ***How the heck did greece get this tech on my turn --esp as the ***civs that could have given it were at war with it????????????

That was fixed in a patch. I suggest you download it (can't remember if it was 1.16f or 1.17f that fixed it).

If you did, then the games corrupt, uninstall and reinstall and install the lastest patch just to make sure.

	26-05-2002 07:38									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

By giving them mobile transportation, they had all the needed tech of the 3rd era, thus pushing them into the 4th. Greece is a scientific civilization, so they get a free tech when entering a new era, thus netting them rocketry. Elementary, my dear Watson.

	26-05-2002 08:23									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Good spotting FrantzX! Despite your protestations otherwise Redstar, the AI doesn't cheat in such a manner. Of course it is unfair in trades, and gets production bonouses at highe levels, but that is another story...

	26-05-2002 08:28									#5
	Get a bigger avatar today!

i have 1.21f installed.

but ok a free tech i can still grumble that it got the free tech on my turn and not on its own turn. (never looked at a scientific civ befor e

so there : )

	26-05-2002 08:31									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by FrantzX By giving them mobile transportation, they had all the needed tech of the 3rd era, thus pushing them into the 4th. Greece is a scientific civilization, so they get a free tech when entering a new era, thus netting them rocketry. Elementary, my dear Watson.

That is exactly correct.

	26-05-2002 09:00									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Don't you need Radio? Did they already have it?

	26-05-2002 10:55									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

But do they get the free tech immediatly or do they get it in the "upkeep" phase of their turn? I would guess upkeep, do you know if they immediatly got another tech you didn't have? That would prove that they did cheat to get rocketry....

	26-05-2002 12:10									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

as i said..they immediately got it in my turn...i reloaded it 2x just to make sure.

and ya..i think radio was one of the 5 techs i gave them.

its certainly not what i thought it was as i was clueless about science type civs getting free techs

	26-05-2002 12:31									#10
	Support Apolyton

Good to know it is explained.

PP73. They get it immediately.

	26-05-2002 17:23									#11
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Redstar as i said..they immediately got it in my turn...i reloaded it 2x just to make sure. and ya..i think radio was one of the 5 techs i gave them. its certainly not what i thought it was as i was clueless about science type civs getting free techs

If the roles were reversed, you too would advance to the next age and get a free tech during the AI's turn.

	26-05-2002 20:51									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

In fact, in my current game I went to the next era and got a free tech in just this manner. The Zulus offered me a trade on their turn, I bought one tech and finished this era and moved into the next gaining a free tech all during their turn.

	26-05-2002 23:09									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I know that Greece must have gotten the tech immediately. I've seen it in my game. This is the story.

I'm playing Japan, and crushing everyone on my side of the supercontinent. I see that Egypt (rival #1, 3/4 my size) and Persia (rival #2, roughly equal but with a smaller army), have just brought the Iroquois (rival #4, 2/3 my size) into a major war with Greece. Greece gets rocked. I'm way ahead in tech, researching Computers in the modern era. Everyone else doesn't have tanks. Greece doesn't have infantry. So go figure what the conclusion of this war would be.

So, I step in with everything from replaceable parts to radio, throwing in rubber, coal, and iron in the bargain. It's Greece's lucky day. I say *what would you offer me for...* and Greece replies *no, not a chance.*

Screw you Greece. I gave it to them for free.

And then they wouldn’t' even give me the free rocketry tech that they got IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NEGOTIATION!!! I didn't even have to close the window.

That pissed me off.

Greece still got dismembered. I was too far away to join in the fun...

	27-05-2002 01:57									#14
	Put an end to popups!

I offered the same deal to greece a few turns later when i had rocketry and the others had fission that i wanted. This time
greece produced fission instead of rocketry. SO this time i was able to trade to techs for the fission and rewrote history.


OK since i've already admitted defeat on the tech issue..here is another questionable practice that might be legit to someone with more knowledge of the game.

I have 2 settlers and 2 other indian units surrounded. They have been surrounded for 8 years. I always make a little door for them to be able to escape if they can only get there ..this way they keep going in circles and don't stop.

Curiously tho, the 2 settlers disappeared and India still shows 3 settlers as exisiting.

In another thread, it was explained to me that the AI can disband units under threat. But we are at peace so there is no reason to do this.

Plus, the settlers are still reported to be alive.

So please explain to me how this happened?

Thanks for your responses...

	27-05-2002 02:05									#15
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Did they have 2 Settlers pop out of their cities and disband the 2 that were useless to them? It is very possible that Soren adjusted for your trap in one of the patches. Something like it has been mentioned many times.

[Edit] Of course he could have implemented transporters too. 'The natives here are very ugly. Beam us up.' Of course the escorts must be wearing red shirts so they are assumed to have died and are left behind. [/Edit]

	27-05-2002 02:11									#16
	Support Apolyton

Do you have a save of just before they disappeared?

Was it very recent in your game? If so, look in your Autosave directory. I'd really like to see this.

	27-05-2002 02:21									#17
	Support Apolyton

Redshirted escort: "NO WAY am I gonna go with them into Roman territory!! You know what's gonna happen!!

Chekhov: "We all gotta go somehow. Anyway, I've got a personal score to settle with Caesar... he killed my brother and his whole family in the razing of Riga. [Runs off]."

Sulu: "What got into Chekhov?"

Captain Cathy: "He's after nye because of his dead brother."

Sulu: "But he doesn't have a brother."

Captain Cathy: "Then it must be the M&Ms."

Redshirted escort: "Damn those Romans. I'd better get a Spear from the armory, just in case they have Tanks."

	27-05-2002 02:26									#18
	Got spare money?

* notyoueither doubles the guard.

	27-05-2002 09:01									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

"Do you have a save of just before they disappeared?

Was it very recent in your game"

I have and at your prompting i have run through multiple outcomes.

First off i was dead wrong about there being 3 settlers to start with...i got a spy in earlier and found out that they had 9 settlers!
I had assumed there was 3 because in the other situation my late spy confirmed what i saw..3 settlers.

i have 3 settlers in my territory ..2 surrounded.
on the the turn i mentioned..it was really 8 settlers that ceased to be. These settlers were not replaced. I do not know why this happened. the only settler to live was 1 of them in my territory that was not surrounded.

Now, if i surround all 3 settlers ...all 9 settlers disappear.
if i leave all 3 settlers alone --only the other 6 settlers disappear.

Now if i let the original position go...8 settlers disappear and the AI then produces 2 more settlers to make the 3 i first saw.

If i let 3 settlers go...those 3 stay but another 2 settlers show up a couple turns later to make 5.

Its all very mysterious

I wish i could see what position the other settlers were in.


If ya still want to see the game i can post it...it would make for a very fun game to play in the modern ages for those who don't want to spend all the time getting to that point. Or for those who just want to have some fun!! =)

Last edited by Redstar on 27-05-2002 at 09:15

	27-05-2002 10:17									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Redstar "Do you have a save of just before they disappeared? Was it very recent in your game" I have and at your prompting i have run through multiple outcomes. First off i was dead wrong about there being 3 settlers to start with...i got a spy in earlier and found out that they had 9 settlers! I had assumed there was 3 because in the other situation my late spy confirmed what i saw..3 settlers. i have 3 settlers in my territory ..2 surrounded. on the the turn i mentioned..it was really 8 settlers that ceased to be. These settlers were not replaced. I do not know why this happened. the only settler to live was 1 of them in my territory that was not surrounded. Now, if i surround all 3 settlers ...all 9 settlers disappear. if i leave all 3 settlers alone --only the other 6 settlers disappear. Now if i let the original position go...8 settlers disappear and the AI then produces 2 more settlers to make the 3 i first saw. If i let 3 settlers go...those 3 stay but another 2 settlers show up a couple turns later to make 5. Its all very mysterious I wish i could see what position the other settlers were in. If ya still want to see the game i can post it...it would make for a very fun game to play in the modern ages for those who don't want to spend all the time getting to that point. Or for those who just want to have some fun!! =)

hi ,

what level are you playing , .......did you play with the editor ,....

have a nice day

	27-05-2002 10:24									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

hi ,

Redstar , could you post a SAV(e) , ......that would help....

have a nice day

	27-05-2002 10:37									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Redstar. I think it makes sense to me. The 6 outside your territory are gone, period. The 3 inside your land will disappear if the AI decides they are useless (you surround them). They have 2 more Settlers in the works and these appear regardless.

Or maybe I'm just insane.

Attachment: confuseddw.gif
This has been downloaded 142 time(s).

	27-05-2002 10:40									#23
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Redstar. I think it makes sense to me. The 6 outside your territory are gone, period. The 3 inside your land will disappear if the AI decides they are useless (you surround them). They have 2 more Settlers in the works and these appear regardless. Or maybe I'm just insane.

hi ,

how do you see these "things" , .............

insane , ....you ,..... , ....nope , ...
however you spend way to much time at some sites that deal with CIV , ..............

have a nice day / morning

	27-05-2002 11:07									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

aye but if they decide to disband 6-9 settlers (depending on what i do)...then why the hay do they not stop production of the other settlers?

and if they feel no need for the other settlers why do they still feel a need for the settlers in my territory if they are free to be on about their business.?

i am playing mid level difficulty and not using the editor.

Still seems way too mysterious for me


i will see if i can figure out how to post a saved game.

edit: i give up trying to figure out how <

	27-05-2002 11:23									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Near the bottom of the Post Reply window. Beneath Message Icon and Options. Attach file. There is a browse button for you to select the file to attach.

	27-05-2002 11:52									#26
	finish the game and have a blast Inflate your Upload Space

thankyou kindly..here is this FUN game especially if ya let the enemy develop nukes )

vanishingsettlersfrmrs.zip


(in this one..there is a palace only a few turns away from being built...in a few years when it is built, income will actually fall. so careful

edit: btw: it is also saved a the point where you can see how the tech goes if ya trade to the greeks.

Attachment: vanishingsettlersfrmrs.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

Last edited by Redstar on 27-05-2002 at 12:15

	27-05-2002 12:20									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There is a Greek occupation of Syracuse! This cannot stand!

Destroy them! Kill the infidel!

That'll be 10,000 Hail Mars for you.

Aside from that it looks like fun.

	27-05-2002 22:38									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Aye..early on i was ambushed by 30 horse and 10 other units.
Since Syracuse was in my isolated outpost of 5 cities i could not get in reinforcements anytime soon.

Syracuse defenders were able to wipe out 16 horse before going down (4 defenders) and hence save the Roman civilization.

When I finally could think about retaking the city i had to sue for peace just before i reached the city. A new wave of greek modern knights had just appeared over the horizon.

So to this day i can't stand looking at that city in enemy hands either. = )