24-07-2002 11:57									#151
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quote: I think you're SUPPOSED to love them

I agree; it always seemed more than a coincidence to me that the voiceover for the Ascent to Transcendence is an excerpt from Conversations With Planet.

	24-07-2002 12:24									#152
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I'm gonna tack this on to the though about entertaining fun propoganda. The non-Diedre/Lal faction leaders represent the worst in humanity. What happens if you get sick under Yang? It's cheaper to make a new robot than to care for you. What happens if you sick under Santiago? You don't get sick, you got shot a long time ago. Forcing your beliefs or culture on someone else is oddly appropirate for this day... it does NOT work. Is any body really happy with no goal in life but to do research? Do you fall in love in any of those societies? Life isn't about money, or science. Life is about... wait for it... what Lal and Diedre stand for. Caring for others, love, love for each other, love for our surroundings, sex , a higher meaning... This I think is what the game designers had in their subconcious, or maybe even concious as they made these lunatics.

	24-07-2002 16:02									#153
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quote: I also believe that Yang probably gets bad press. After having lived in China for a year, I know for a fact that the Beijing government does. If Yang (or, more accurately, Sheng) can bring about a faction that works similarly to the current Chinese state, then I'd be happy with that.

Good for you, but let me just remind you that a police state is not a state where you can live happily.
Just remember what Yang tells to other factions which are living under Democracy...

	24-07-2002 17:48									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Being a westerner in Beijing is one thing, and being a Tibetan dissident in Tibet is quite another.

It's not like China has a monopoly on being nasty against dissidents. Democratic states also do so. Just look at Spain and GB some years ago.

	24-07-2002 19:29									#155
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True. But we could quote every country. But Id still prefer to live with Domai, Deirdre or Lal than with Yang...

	24-07-2002 22:24									#156
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Of course. I was just defending China, not Yang.

	25-07-2002 05:50									#157
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quote: Life is about... wait for it... what Lal and Diedre

Do you honestly believe that there is any government in history or in the future that would not tear up "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" for its own interests?

	25-07-2002 07:17									#158
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It doesn't have anythign to do with a government. It has to do with what the two people stand for. So roll your eyes somewhere else, young'n. The governments are 100% unrealistic. They represent things.

"what Lal and Diedre stand for"

Read thoroughly.

	25-07-2002 08:14									#159
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What do you mean? That those are better governments because they are led by idealists? And yes, it has to do with governments, because Yang and Miriam represent certain types of government. Don't swoon over Lal just because he defends the precious U.N. Charter in his quotations, because as a rational person you should understand that it is extremely difficult to govern strictly according to a - any - principle.

	25-07-2002 09:41									#160
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You missed the point again. I'm not talking about governments. The leaders are maniacs. Representing a real government or not doesn't matter when it's taken to such an extreme. I think most people on here can see that religion isn't a bad thing unless it's dogmatic, Marx had a good ideas, science isn't evil when you have informed consent, money isn't a bad thing, and guns aren't evil. The game designers, IMO, made these people lunatics to make a point about these issues. Lal and Diedre are what the designers found to be worth living for. It doesn't matter one bit if they can't make it happen in politics. it's just a game. We don't stop helping each other just because the world is a violent place and we can't change that. We have to have an ideal and go with it.


As a side note. "What do you mean? That those are better governments because they are led by idealists?"

HELL YES!!! Or I'd have joined Al Qaudia by now. It does matter who you choose to follow.

	25-07-2002 09:55									#161
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Theres probably more restrictions on freedom in the Gaian faction than Morganite. Everything about the Gaian's economy choices screams "regulated".

In a democracy, only the majority get their way. And even then only an approximation of what "their way" would be. Or even a choice of the lesser of two evils. Both Dee and Lal tend towards a Planned Democracy. Planned Democracy. Any choice will only be percieved choice. You might get what you want, or you might get what the majority wants. And then you have no choice but to do it, because the majority wanted it.

A truly good dictator may really know better than the people about whats best for the people (ofcourse power corrupts). Prehaps Yang really does know best. Atleast he's honest and delivers. And Yang obviously runs a better Planned economy than any other, because he doesn't get negative effeciency from it. IOW, Yangs planned economy does actually work!

A "good" planned economy puts people where they can do the most good, considering there skill sets. A "bad" planned economy puts people any old where and creates needless ineffeciency. Guess which is Yangs and which is 'other'.

Morganites probably have the greatest personal liberties of any faction. Which isn't nessecary a good thing, because it gives people the freedom to screw other people. But better than being screwed by the beaurocracy .

My impression is, Lal is just as power hungry as the rest of them. He just hides it (the two faced Lal). As far as Lal is concerned, your business is his business and it's his business to put his nose in your business. And if you don't agree your obstructing the free flow of information and he sets his "peacekeepers" onto you. Weeee.

On the perfect planet I'd go down the Morganites. Yang would exterminate the Peace Keepers. The Morganites and Hive would form a beautiful alliance to withstand the trials of planet. The Believers and Gaians would remain two-bit factions that practise their respective religions and provide retreats for people who want to feel oneness with the creator (or planet). The University would be left to practise their research in peace.
The Spartans would remain to keep the Morganites on their toes, and prevent them from becoming too fat and lazy. A bit of strife is good for one, after all.

SMAX factions:
The Data Angels would become a sub-culture of the Morganites, while the Free Drone rebellion is crushed by Yang. The Cyborgs would form an obscure culture on some island or somesuch. Cha Dawn would attract followers from the Gaians and Belieivers, and become yet another obscure cult. Soon after landing, Svensgard would discover sea cities arent feasible or possible and float to the University shores on a unity pod, where he is captured and used in gene-splicing experiments.
The Aliens would be gassed by the Hive and Spartans.

Ultimately the Morganites and Hive would become a superpower, and the other factions "the rest of the world".
Finally, Lal would be captured (from the Hive fun sphere) by a University Probe team, the university would do genetic experiments on him and create Lal-Monkey clones which are sold to freak shows and throw dung at passerbys.

One can dream.

	25-07-2002 11:33									#162
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quote: Originally posted by name As a side note. "What do you mean? That those are better governments because they are led by idealists?" HELL YES!!! Or I'd have joined Al Qaudia by now. It does matter who you choose to follow.

Good god, don't you realize that Al Quaida are idealists? It's what allows them to disconnect from their humanity enough to regard the majority of the people on the planet as unfit to live. In their case they idealize their religiously based form of governance, the worst of the Commmunists idealized an "end of history" and a new economic system no matter the cost, and the Nazis idealized the "Aryan" race. When something is idealized and single minded momentum is added via propoganda almost any crime is possible, and committed not by sociopaths but by idealists who fixate on the goal rather than the cost.

Of course idealists can be / have been very beneficial as well, but there needs to be a constant balancing of values so that for the sake of one ideal every other idea is not sacrificed. This is why it's very dangerous to limit the free flow of ideas, or for anyone to have too much control over the organs of propoganda. It's far too easy in such a circumstance for an unbalanced message to unhinge the larger population.

	25-07-2002 15:08									#163
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All SMAC and SMAX factions are idealists. Thats the whole point of the game : Unity is separated in 7 factions, not according to their nationality but according to their ideal.

If you wanted to say that these factions are better because they are led by Utopists, I'd say more or less yes. Cause both Dee and Lal are pacifists. Of course they wont bother long with diplomacy and declare vendetta upon you if you dont agree with them (ie Free Market drives Deirdre mad), but without any battles, the game would be less fun...

	25-07-2002 17:57									#164
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Is Lal really that ethical? He tries to make out that he's such a great humanitarian but that stuff about his wife (...so that i may love her again) sounds pretty dodgy to me. Is he suggesting he would clone his wife?

	25-07-2002 20:02									#165
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Whats the big idea with his wife ? I ve never heard about anything like that !

	25-07-2002 23:56									#166
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1) I'm not sure OBL is an idealist. I think he tries to present himself as one to gain support. It's hard to get into his mind though. He may actually believe he is an idealist.? It's hard to tell how much he actually believes in his ideals when they're so contradictory. i.e. his followers don't even TRY to follow the Koran; alcohol and strippers come to mind, and the more obvious examples... And yet he wants the whole world to follow these rules? I think he just has ASPD.


2) The point was more the last sentence, that it matters who you follow. Obviously Bush isn't an idealist. Quite the antithesis. It sounded like the poster was arguing no forms of 'government' (you can use the Iraqi regime or Taliban if Al Qauida doesn't fit the definition) are any better than others.

	26-07-2002 03:39									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak Whats the big idea with his wife ? I ve never heard about anything like that !

Its a blurb from one of the technologies (I don't remember which). Anyway, the full blurb goes...

"I loved my chosen. How I bereaved the day she left me. If only I could take a single cell from her body, so that I may love her again."

...or something like that.

	26-07-2002 04:00									#168
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Okay...
Lal's pretty sick, isnt he ?

	26-07-2002 04:01									#169
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quote: Originally posted by LordAzreal Its a blurb from one of the technologies (I don't remember which). Anyway, the full blurb goes... "I loved my chosen. How I bereaved the day she left me. If only I could take a single cell from her body, so that I may love her again." ...or something like that.

Actually I think it goes "I love my chosen. How then to face the day when she left me? So I took a single body from her cell, perhaps to love her again."

	26-07-2002 05:39									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak Okay... Lal's pretty sick, isnt he ?

Indeed.

quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Actually I think it goes "I love my chosen. How then to face the day when she left me? So I took a single body from her cell, perhaps to love her again."

Whatever.

But the the point that Lal has a double standard going there stays the same. Ranting about the ethical problems of the times one minute, then considering cloning his significant other the next.

	26-07-2002 06:15									#171
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What's unethical about cloning someone? What's sick about it?

I see two possibilites. One, he gets a daughter to raise. Two, they can somehow make an adult human with the same genes and no experiences? So then Lal would just ask her out, and perhaps they would fall in love again.

	26-07-2002 07:12									#172
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On a spiritual level, cloning a significant other would be a problem. It is a good question whether or not the clone has the same soul as the original (despite the fact that the original is dead).

Though the second possibility could come to pass, I know I'd still somehow feel dirty about it if I were placed in that position (I'm one of the type who believes in the one true significant other, or 'soulmate' if you will).

While she will look exactly like Lal's wife, and have the same genes as Lal's wife, she is not his wife. And as such, probably won't have the same soul as the 'template'.

	30-07-2002 05:10									#173
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Roze and the gang. no doubt.

	30-07-2002 10:30									#174
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This is a tough one.

Gaian: Wiccan unite!!!! See my previous post in SocEng on why I'd join.

Morgan: Nevermind the fact that I suck at math and business is really not my cup of tea. But I'm in agreement with Blake regarding the whole luxury, plus I might defect with Sinder and join the Angels since if I really did join Morgan Industries I'd probably be assigned to some random meaningless desk job like her as well.

"Good Evening, you have reached Morgan Studios. This is Marc speaking, how may I help you?"

However, the Captain's goatess is kinda cute, if you manage to ignore his one eye. And the negative GROWTH social really makes you think. So, is the Village People's "In the Navy" played often in Safe Haven's Rec common?