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Jethro83
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Newcastle, Australia
Mar 2002
time: 15:19
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quote:
Originally posted by frankychan
Whose the 4th person who Voted for the benevolent Chairman Yang? And whose the lost soul who voted for the accursed Sister Miriam??? |
So, someone voted Miriam. I'm not surprised with that though. Remember though that most of the factions build Gattaca style socieities where the genetically superior (and those who undergo gene therapy) are dominant. To be what is known as a 'godchild', as in their genes aren't tampered with in that way, they would be considered second class citizens (and would also be rounded up and killed in the case of the Spartan socieity).
Since the Believers harbour a deep mistrust in all things secular, their faction is somewhat of a save haven for those who weren't genetically altered, as there is no such thing as designer babies, gene therapy or any other Gattaca sorts of goodies within their bounds. I can imagine common drones of the University who were displaced by genetically superior uberpeople, marching out and heading straight to New Jerusalem to find a better way of life there. To some people (particularly at that time into the future), religion is so trivial that if they have to buy into that crap to survive without having their bodies tampered with by mad scientists, so be it.
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Ah, you guys don't play true to the faction, since I haven't played SMAC in ages (due to the fact that my cd-drive is broken), this is what I normally play for Human Hive (I don't really play other factions)
Police State
Planned (Green if SMAC version isn't patched)
Power
Thought Control |
I know I don't play true to the faction. The problem with being true to the faction is in being inflexible. Rather than picking a single agenda and sticking with it through and through, I prefer flexibility, and what serves the best interests of the faction.
For instance, when I play the Spartans, I wouldn't go Police State, Simple, Power and no future society as their true to faction model would probably be. Instead I like to go...
- Police State (extra support helps you maintain more of those superior trained Spartan units)
- Green (Combat inefficiency, withstanding the worm onslaught, nuff said)
- Knowledge (When the Spartans have superior weaponry, they can be practically INVINCIBLE!!!)
...early on, and before the Living Refinery and Cloning Vats secret projects and Eudaimonic society. Thereafter:
- Democratic (Since I get +2 Support from Living Refinery, there is no longer any compunctions against this one. It also helps to increase growth rate even later on when nutrient output is HUGE)
- Planned (Just because we're armed to the teeth, with a bloated defence budget doesn't mean we can't build something even resembling industry).
- Power (with the Cloning Vats in place, there's no longer any compunctions against Power. Besides, with the energy output at this point, the labs already work fast enough)
- Eudaimonic (Since I can run a Power society with impunity, there's no longer any compunctions against this choice, which immensely tops up Industry and Economy)
I could also be known for running a Fundamentalist Peacekeeper state, a Green Morganite economy, a Democratic Believer faction, and a Planned economy Gaian faction (even though Dierdre believes Planned to be drowing the planet in human waste). If you simply run the faction true to the faction, there are advantages of other models that you simply miss out on.
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To combat setbacks, I pump out massive units and bully my nearest neighbor to give me my desired tech or else its Hive-takeover time. |
Definitely a good option. Though I like to do that kind of thing with the Believers a little more than the Hive, only more subtle. They already have increased Probe Rating (which is further increased with Fundamentalism), so I make use of it (having more probes than troops sometimes). The Hive's setbacks can be combatted with the proper Social Engineering choices that may not be true to the faction.
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Jethro83
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Newcastle, Australia
Mar 2002
time: 15:19
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quote:
Originally posted by frankychan
I tend to have a natural aversion toward religious fundamentalists, and Sister Miriam is the "garlic" to my "vampire". I hate with a passion, religious fundamentalists and even though I may outwardly seem the paragon of civility, I inwardly detest these individuals. |
Indeed it would be good to release the hounds on Jehova's Witnesses when they come to the door. Those who would try and force people to join their flock are people who I also find detestable.
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I truly believe Yang is better than Miriam because IMHO, Yang seems more rational than Miriam in terms of scientific achievement. (One just needs to look at The Believers stance to the UoP to see this viewpoint). |
EVERYBODY is more rational than the Miriam and her minions in terms of not just scientific achievement, but EVERYTHING. That's why those fearing artificial change in the human genepool end up joining the Believers in the long run. Why they are so scared of becoming something more than they currently are, I don't know.
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As to your other points, I can see how you can see the faults of playing the faction "true-to-its-doctrine", but I like to have the challenge of implementing the factions die-hard views and seeing if their way is the so called right way. |
I guess I could try that all out. But I believe that taking any doctrine to the extreme isn't exactly right. There needs to be room for change when needed.
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So far, I haven't seen much detriments of running the Human Hive way (after the patches), and still side with the benevolent Chairman Yang. After that would be Lady Deidre Skye (cause she's a babe!). |
The only difference to how I run the Hive, and the true to Yang's doctrine model is that I choose Eudaimonia over Thought Control. I can see no thorns in Yang's side with a true to the faction Hive, since the only penalty of thought control is support (which is nullified by the Cloning Vats). I could also use that extra morale from Power instead of nullifying it with Eudaimonia to wage war with greater success.
As for Dierdre, I'm guessing her agenda would be Democratic, Green, Knowledge and Eudaimonia. With penalties in Morale (innate, as well as extra from Eudaimonia), Police (also innate), Support (from Democratic), Probe (from Knowledge). Quite difficult to wage war, as the only units you can get with clean reactors totally suck due to the low morale. Worms are Dierdre's best weapon, but they will cost quite a bit to support. And unless they can build the Hunter Seeker Algorithm, they are going to be fodder for enemy probe teams, and will be hard pressed keeping their technology out of enemy hands. Not only that, but actions from friendly probes will be less successful and more expensive, making mind control base subversion no good an alternative.
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I tried playing Morgan both true to his belief's as well as trying to counterbalance his detriments and couldn't do it.
.....maybe I'm just too much of a power-monger to play Morgan? |
I've had the same problem. I've found the best way for me is to go Fundamentalist and use the superior probes to procure research data and subvert bases with mind control (which Morgan can easily pay for). When they send troops to retaliate, mind control them, and dismantle them to get a facility built. Even then I have trouble.
IMHO Morgan is a powermonger who has huge trouble holding the supreme executive power he expects, as the decadence of his people (innate negative support value) and the ruthlessly exploited and p-offed drones (negative police from Free Market) undermine his authority very easily.
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dunk
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Philadelphia, PA
Mar 2002
time: 00:19
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I would join Lal.
I'm ignoring all the times he's attacked me in the game (since I haven't played AC if I'm on the Unity) and all of the books (since I've never read them).
Reading the Datalinks on the factions, The Peacekeepers embody what I beleive the world here on Earth should become. Prefferred got: Democratic.
The Hive, which I am surprised to read some of these posts defending Yang, is simply scary. Remember that only Yang is in charge and you would have to do anything he says. I don't want to live in a police state, regardless of its professed goals or motivations. Preferred govt: POLICE STATE, I don't care how noble or how eloquent Yang's little quotes are, he's a dictator and you'd find that out as soon as you disagreed with any one of his desicions.
The Morgans wouldn't be too bad, seeing as how it would be similar to what we have in the USA now.
The Gaians would be ok. Living in a nice, clean environment would be nice. Living with Moon Unit wouldn't though. 
The University is a little frightening to me as well. I would assume most of the research would be done for its own sake, but the potential misuse of things like cloning, gene splicing, and other current cutting-edge technlogies makes me a little leary of a "mad scientist".
The Beleivers go right out the window. No thanks. My spiritual beleifs are my own to discover, not anyone else's.
The Spartans are frightening too. I don't want to live in a society where active military service seems compulsory.
That's my opinion. I think a lot of people forget that they're probably not going to be in any position of power within these factions, simply a normal citizen, as you are in this life.
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Adalbertus
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Cologne, Germany
Feb 2001
time: 06:19
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quote:
I'm ignoring all the times he's attacked me in the game (since I haven't played AC if I'm on the Unity) and all of the books (since I've never read them). |
Are you really sure? The projected launch of Unity is in 2060. 58 years from now. Unless there are no particularly important advances in Longevity Treatment, or I'm as longliving as Konrad Adenauer, I probably won't make it to Unity (being 92 at that time). On the other hand, there are some 22 year old fans of SMAC (and perhaps even younger) who might have a chance to participate as Yang or Morgan. (According to some obscure sources, including Apolyton, Yang is born exactly 60 years after beginning of WWII, or is it exactly 31 years younger than I, anyway, he should be around 3 right now. Zak should be 8 years right now, Morgan -3, Lal -4. At least Zak might already be fan of SMAC (or soon be). Who nose?
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EnsRegis
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I'm really surprised by all the animosity towards Miriam. I personally dislike her, even though I am a religious man myself. There is a difference between being religous and being unscientific. There can be and are relgious scientists, and I don't really appreciate the view in the game that religon fears science (I like the quote about "The righteous need not cower...")
For example, I love computers and other products of advanced technology. All religion has to say is to be ethical--for example, no human cloning, at least until you're sure that you won't make terrible mistakes. (Disclaimer: The one exception is evolution, which I don't even want to get into, so please don't bring it up) But computer technologies, manufacturing techniques, artificial intelligence, etc, is all well and good, and would be persued all the more because there is less of a focus on unethical (retroviral engineering comes to mind) research and so on.
The image that Miriam gets in the game (which is all I'm basing this on, having never read the books) is that of a cowering leader trying to hide from progress, which is not the way most religous people are. Most of the people I know at church are accepting of and/or excited by new technology, provided that it does not exceed the limits of ethical (biblical) behavior. The game does a terrible job of portraying the balanced viewpoint.
Of course, the alternative is to assume that the other factions are balanced in all their views except the one that they're known for (say for example, some of the Morganites, though probably not Morgan himself, practice religion). That's why I would vote for the Morganites or the Peacekeepers. Freedom rules. Get the government out of the private citizen's life as much as possible.
Got to go now.
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GeneralTacticus
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of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:19
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quote:
Originally posted by EnsRegis
I'm really surprised by all the animosity towards Miriam. I personally dislike her, even though I am a religious man myself. There is a difference between being religous and being unscientific. There can be and are relgious scientists, and I don't really appreciate the view in the game that religon fears science (I like the quote about "The righteous need not cower...") |
You're right, there is a difference between being religious and unscientific, but absolute fundies like Miriam tend to fear science because it comes up with things that contradict their doctrines. Look at Galileo and Darwin for examples of this.
quote:
For example, I love computers and other products of advanced technology. All religion has to say is to be ethical--for example, no human cloning, at least until you're sure that you won't make terrible mistakes. (Disclaimer: The one exception is evolution, which I don't even want to get into, so please don't bring it up) But computer technologies, manufacturing techniques, artificial intelligence, etc, is all well and good, and would be persued all the more because there is less of a focus on unethical (retroviral engineering comes to mind) research and so on. |
Just try to think the way the Believers are portrayed as thinking for a moment. They want everyone to believe in the same Bible; so no freedom of belief. They want everyone to believe that said Bible is literally true; anything that goes against that has to go. And of course any science that contradicts their morals also has to go. Doesn't exactly leave much room for progress.
quote:
The image that Miriam gets in the game (which is all I'm basing this on, having never read the books) is that of a cowering leader trying to hide from progress, which is not the way most religous people are. Most of the people I know at church are accepting of and/or excited by new technology, provided that it does not exceed the limits of ethical (biblical) behavior. The game does a terrible job of portraying the balanced viewpoint. |
Most religious people aren't fundies. Miriam is.
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Frankychan
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In the Kingdom of Hawaii (CPA Member)
Sep 2001
time: 19:19
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quote:
Originally posted by LordAzreal
EVERYBODY is more rational than the Miriam and her minions in terms of not just scientific achievement, but EVERYTHING. That's why those fearing artificial change in the human genepool end up joining the Believers in the long run. Why they are so scared of becoming something more than they currently are, I don't know. |
This is one reason why I don't understand why the U.S. govt restricts research into stem stell research. This scientific breakthrough has been proven to save lives and I don't understand how our elected representatives would deny us this valuable key to fighting genetic diseases.
quote:
The only difference to how I run the Hive, and the true to Yang's doctrine model is that I choose Eudaimonia over Thought Control. I can see no thorns in Yang's side with a true to the faction Hive, since the only penalty of thought control is support (which is nullified by the Cloning Vats). I could also use that extra morale from Power instead of nullifying it with Eudaimonia to wage war with greater success. |
Hmmm, I never tried implementing Eudaimonia as a future SC choice. I usually pick Thought Control or Cybernetic (?)
quote:
As for Dierdre, I'm guessing her agenda would be Democratic, Green, Knowledge and Eudaimonia. With penalties in Morale (innate, as well as extra from Eudaimonia), Police (also innate), Support (from Democratic), Probe (from Knowledge). Quite difficult to wage war, as the only units you can get with clean reactors totally suck due to the low morale. Worms are Dierdre's best weapon, but they will cost quite a bit to support. And unless they can build the Hunter Seeker Algorithm, they are going to be fodder for enemy probe teams, and will be hard pressed keeping their technology out of enemy hands. Not only that, but actions from friendly probes will be less successful and more expensive, making mind control base subversion no good an alternative. |
I agree with you on this. Deidre seems like the kind of gal that likes for things to go the "way of the people", but so long as they are parallel with her own ideals. I find her one of the hardest opponents to deal with late in the game because I tend to ignore her (thinking she's weak) and deal with the more immediate threats.....Santiago, Miriam, Lal.
quote:
I've had the same problem. I've found the best way for me is to go Fundamentalist and use the superior probes to procure research data and subvert bases with mind control (which Morgan can easily pay for). When they send troops to retaliate, mind control them, and dismantle them to get a facility built. Even then I have trouble.
IMHO Morgan is a powermonger who has huge trouble holding the supreme executive power he expects, as the decadence of his people (innate negative support value) and the ruthlessly exploited and p-offed drones (negative police from Free Market) undermine his authority very easily. |
A Religious Capitalist? That sounds rather unique! I never tried implementing Fundamentalism for the simple fact that I wholeheartedly disagree with it. I agree with you that Morgan is a powermonger and I believe that he is worse that Yang for the simple fact that he tries to exploit EVERYONE so long as he gets the Lion's Share of the wealth.
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Jethro83
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Newcastle, Australia
Mar 2002
time: 15:19
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quote:
Originally posted by frankychan
This is one reason why I don't understand why the U.S. govt restricts research into stem stell research. This scientific breakthrough has been proven to save lives and I don't understand how our elected representatives would deny us this valuable key to fighting genetic diseases. |
Indeed. Even here in Australia, the same sort of problem exists.
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Hmmm, I never tried implementing Eudaimonia as a future SC choice. I usually pick Thought Control or Cybernetic (?) |
The benefit of a Hive player picking Eudaimonia is that it nullifies the innate economic penalties of the Hive. Once Yang has a Eudaimonic society with Power nullifying the morale penalty (and the Cloning vats nullifying Power's Industrial penalty), there's just no negatives left to cover. Only many positives.
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I agree with you on this. Deidre seems like the kind of gal that likes for things to go the "way of the people", but so long as they are parallel with her own ideals. I find her one of the hardest opponents to deal with late in the game because I tend to ignore her (thinking she's weak) and deal with the more immediate threats.....Santiago, Miriam, Lal. |
I guess with all the forests I see her plant, the mineral production will pay for the mind worm hordes she unleashes upon unsuspecting enemies. Having learnt the painful lesson taught from treating her leniently, I make it a top priority to get rid of her quickly (that, and the fact that I somehow get the satisfaction of hearing "I submit!" come from that pretty face). Especially if they're my neighbour (though I wipe out my closest neighbour early regardless of who they are. Can't have them choke up my expansion now can we?)
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A Religious Capitalist? That sounds rather unique! |
Why the hell not? Religion is still influential amongst the masses, therefore leaving plenty of room for them to sell out at colossal proportions. IIRC, a lot of religions are massively selling out already.
And since religious real estate holdings are tax exempt, its the perfect scam to cheat taxation (probably the main reason cults are formed).
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I never tried implementing Fundamentalism for the simple fact that I wholeheartedly disagree with it. |
I also disagree with Fundamentalism. Still, its good to try out every social engineering option. And with some factions, it is the option that is the strongest.
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I agree with you that Morgan is a powermonger and I believe that he is worse that Yang for the simple fact that he tries to exploit EVERYONE so long as he gets the Lion's Share of the wealth. |
Exactly why I get a whole heap of satisfaction draining his energy reserves with my probe teams, or simply wiping him off the face of Planet.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
I also believe that Yang probably gets bad press. After having lived in China for a year, I know for a fact that the Beijing government does. If Yang (or, more accurately, Sheng) can bring about a faction that works similarly to the current Chinese state, then I'd be happy with that.
Of course, China currently is not all that similar to the Hive, but from what many people say on these forums and elsewhere, I assume this fact is not widely known. |
All of the factions leaders are caricatures to some extent, with Yang and Miriam being pretty out there and Deirdre being a very light dig at the greens. Still there is at least a grain of truth to the caricatures. Being a westerner in Beijing is one thing, and being a Tibetan dissident in Tibet is quite another.
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name
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I just want to say that the faction leaders are all complete and total, inhumane, sick, twisted, murdering, oppressive, dogmatic, unfeeling psychopaths.
The exceptions I see are Diedre and Lal, who appear to be nearly perfect. I think they're in the game to be the good guys. I think you're SUPPOSED to love them; they are the creators pictures of ideal societies and the others are presented in such a horrifying manner to be entertaining propoganda.
There is nothing wrong with the ideas that are the basis for the other societies (no, religion is not a bad thing. It, whatever you worship, is critical for happiness IMO), but in the manner they are presented, I'd rather just go down with the Unity.
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02-07-2002 13:03
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