27-05-2002 10:09									#1
	Combat Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Rome just declared war on me. I have infantry and they have riflemen. My infantry should be kicking their riflemens ass's but for some reason their kicking mine, even their pikemen beat my infantry what the hell is up with that?

	27-05-2002 10:14									#2
	Got spare money?

Let's see... it could have something to do with their ADM values. Come back when you have a real complaint... or just dredge up another of the 100 similar topics.

	27-05-2002 10:19									#3
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* Inverse Icarus awaits the "whats ADM mean?" response.



(attack-defense-movement if you're really that slow)

	27-05-2002 10:20									#4
	Got spare money?

You are attacking? It's even odds Inf attacking Rifle with no defence bonuses. Add Fortified, Rough Terrain, Large City (7plus) or Walls and you are at a disadvantage in a hurry.

How many scraps have you lost to Pike?

What does 'butt kicked' consist of? Losing 1of5, 1of2, 3of5, 9of10?

[Edit] Easy guys. I'm sure we were all new to something at sometime. [/Edit]

	27-05-2002 10:22									#5
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"butt kicked" is often a measure of how many times one has reloaded the game due to "unfavorable" combat results.

	27-05-2002 10:23									#6
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 "butt kicked" is often a measure of how many times one has reloaded the game due to "unfavorable" combat results.

reloading is for panzies. it's cheating IMHO. take what you get, even if you lose 3 settlers to barbarians.

	27-05-2002 11:02									#7
	Re: Combat Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by delsolsi Rome just declared war on me. I have infantry and they have riflemen. My infantry should be kicking their riflemens ass's but for some reason their kicking mine, even their pikemen beat my infantry what the hell is up with that?

hi ,

can you post a SAV(e) so we can all see , .............

have a nice day / morning

	27-05-2002 11:25									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Let's see... it could have something to do with their ADM values. Come back when you have a real complaint... or just dredge up another of the 100 similar topics.

If you go by ADM values I should be winning.
Infantry.....................Riffleman
Attack: 6...................Attack: 4
Defense: 10................Defense: 6
Movement: 1..............Movement: 1

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You are attacking? It's even odds Inf attacking Rifle with no defence bonuses. Add Fortified, Rough Terrain, Large City (7plus) or Walls and you are at a disadvantage in a hurry.

Their attacking me and all my cities are metropolis so I should be getting a 100% defense bonus.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What does 'butt kicked' consist of? Losing 1of5, 1of2, 3of5, 9of10?

I'd say I'm loosing about 3 out of 4, I didn't count as I was playing but its pretty close to this.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither [Edit] Easy guys. I'm sure we were all new to something at sometime. [/Edit]

Thanks for sticking up for me. I'm new to this game and to these forums. I seem to have struck a nerve with cyclotron7 and UberKruX, I don't know what their problem is.


To me my infantry would logically beat the riffleman the majority of the time. My guys have higher attack and higher defense. I'm not saying I should win everytime but I think 2 out of 3 should be about right, not the 1 out of 4 I'm currently getting.

To cyclotron7 and UberKruX rather than flamming could you please explain why this happens or point me in the direction to find out for myself.

	27-05-2002 11:51									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Are the Romans Vetern (4 health pips)? Are your Infantry Regular (3 pips)? Or the other way around. 3 out of 4 Rifle attacking Infantry fortified in a metropolis is definitely out of whack.

How many cities have you lost?

	27-05-2002 12:29									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Are the Romans Vetern (4 health pips)? Are your Infantry Regular (3 pips)? Or the other way around. 3 out of 4 Rifle attacking Infantry fortified in a metropolis is definitely out of whack. How many cities have you lost?

Probably about half and half on both sides.

	27-05-2002 12:29									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Just wait 'till the Romans send in the Spearmen!

	27-05-2002 13:44									#12
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quote: Originally posted by delsolsi To cyclotron7 and UberKruX rather than flamming could you please explain why this happens or point me in the direction to find out for myself.

You have to understand that some people feel that you are not allowed to criticize the goofy, non-historical values (or anything else) about this flawed Civ 3. Disregard them.

I Edited battleships to 25.20.6, with ironclads at 8.8.5. But I have seen an attacking BB get knocked down to just one hit point by an ironclad; I've seen an attacking ironclad sink a BB. Very weird results.

I edited up post-gunpowder units. Riflemen: 8.10.1. Infanty: 10.13.1.

If riflemen are attacking fortified infantry (Firaxis' strength values) in a metropolis they would have to come in WAVES to defeat you, even with this quirky system. Can you keep track of the number of riflemen lost before another rifleman unit defeats you? I assume they don't use artillery - the only way riflemen have a viable chance at being used offensively with effect. An infantry unit in such a position should kill 2-3 riflemen easily before being taken out on average. Unless the AI is cheating again, as often happens.

	27-05-2002 14:12									#13
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So, they are attacking you.

You win half the time, and lose half the time. You have counted? How many cities have you lost?

Are your Infantry fortified? Perhaps it's a stupid question, but I've gotta ask it.

How big are your cities? The ones being attacked. Size 7 is not 100% defence bonus.

Now's the killer. Can you post a save?

	27-05-2002 15:57									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Coracle You have to understand that some people feel that you are not allowed to criticize the goofy, non-historical values (or anything else) about this flawed Civ 3. Disregard them. I Edited battleships to 25.20.6, with ironclads at 8.8.5. But I have seen an attacking BB get knocked down to just one hit point by an ironclad; I've seen an attacking ironclad sink a BB. Very weird results. I edited up post-gunpowder units. Riflemen: 8.10.1. Infanty: 10.13.1. If riflemen are attacking fortified infantry (Firaxis' strength values) in a metropolis they would have to come in WAVES to defeat you, even with this quirky system. Can you keep track of the number of riflemen lost before another rifleman unit defeats you? I assume they don't use artillery - the only way riflemen have a viable chance at being used offensively with effect. An infantry unit in such a position should kill 2-3 riflemen easily before being taken out on average. Unless the AI is cheating again, as often happens.

hi ,

sure that you have 1.21 , ........ , or did you played to much with the editor , .........

please post a SAV(e) , .....

have a nice day

	27-05-2002 18:51									#15
	Re: Combat Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by delsolsi Rome just declared war on me. I have infantry and they have riflemen. My infantry should be kicking their riflemens ass's but for some reason their kicking mine, even their pikemen beat my infantry what the hell is up with that?

Are you counterattacking with infantry out of your cities? You should have no problem defending, but should avoid leaving the city unless part of a coordinated counterattack. Do you have artillery? A few well-placed artillery will quickly turn this situation around.

If you want to counterattack, use artillery to weaken the defenders, then cavalry to clean up. Try to retreat to your cities to heal whenever possible. Meanwhile, bring up reinforcements from the rear.

If you have done all of this, then you could post the game for advice.

	27-05-2002 19:32									#16
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Make sure you do not get to the point that you're defending all the time. Next time be the one who is on the offense

KILL KILL KILL

(Sorry, I get like that sometimes )

	27-05-2002 20:38									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

One of the changes I've noticed with the default 1.21 is that tanks can now kick butt on mech inf. I cant tell you how many fortified mech inf on hills and mountains I've lost in my last (unfinished) game, but it was a surprisingly large number.

	28-05-2002 04:24									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by delsolsi To cyclotron7 and UberKruX rather than flamming could you please explain why this happens or point me in the direction to find out for myself.

By referring to the ADM values, I meant that it is quite plausible that infantry could lose on the defensive to riflemen in a metropolis. It's called bad luck; If you don't like the numbers, mod them. It's that simple.

	28-05-2002 08:12									#19
	Tired of ads?

My biggest beef with the combat system:

Ok so I want to use way out of date, non upgradable units (ie swordsman) against a technically superior foe, lets say infantry. So I want to suicide like 4 swordsman to maybe reduce the infantries hp. The infantry will win much of the time, and he will go up the ranks to veteran and elite. What bothers me is that if I have gotten this infantry down to 1 hp and he gets promoted, he goes up to 2 hp. Canceling out completly the last succesful attack! GRR! IMO the hp should not change after promotion, just the max hp.

	28-05-2002 11:41									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 Just wait 'till the Romans send in the Spearmen!

shame on you!!! dont you know that spearmen are reserved for killing tanks?

	28-05-2002 12:12									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Roman Spearmen kill ALL.

	29-05-2002 17:41									#22
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Roman Spearmen kill ALL.

hi ,

dont you mean the roman legion's , ............

have a nice day

	29-05-2002 20:09									#23
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Just want to make sure Delsolsi understands what the ADM numbers mean here, though I know it seems obvious to most...

So D, you understand that just because your numbers are higher doesn't mean you will always win, right? Your attack is 6, their defense is 6. If they are fortified, that means they will kick your butt most of the time if you attack them. The lesson? DON'T attack them. Ever. Don't counterattack, don't ever move your infantry into a square occupied by a rifleman. Just hit the 'F' key for all your guys and sit there and take it like a man.

Use cavalry to counterattack their riflemen. They will have even less chance of winning, but at least they can damage them, thus removing them from the front lines, and hopefully retreat.

If your infantry are fortified and getting whipped by attacking riflemen... that stinks man. It's really bad luck. suck it up for a while, it won't happen forever - the odds should eventually be in your favor again.

	29-05-2002 22:11									#24
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quote: Originally posted by delsolsi Thanks for sticking up for me. I'm new to this game and to these forums. I seem to have struck a nerve with cyclotron7 and UberKruX, ...

New to the forums is maybe the key. For the first few months after this beta-game was released, about half of all threads seemed to be "My unit lost, it's a bug!" whining. People got very touchy when such a thread popped up, and lashed out at the poster...

It sounds like you've had terrible luck. Beyond that, I'll play that broken record "post a save!" There are plenty of people who will be willing to help or advise.

	29-05-2002 23:18									#25
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

In Call To Power 2 the combat system was very different - a pop-up apeared, graphically showing the progress of the battle. With this format, you also got flanking units (such as tanks), allowing these flanking units (i.e. tanks) to go 3 on 1 on non-flanking units. This certainly eliminated the tank/spearman problem!

	30-05-2002 01:50									#26
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq It sounds like you've had terrible luck. Beyond that, I'll play that broken record "post a save!" There are plenty of people who will be willing to help or advise.

Yeah I think maybe it was just terrible luck. I didn't have a recent save so I used one that was 20 or 30 turns back. I must have done things differently with those turns because it took Rome longer before they declared war on me. Once the war started my infantry won alot more battles then before, they still lost quite a bit too but not like the first time.

To all those asking for a save. The only save I have is from 20 or 30 turns before I had the problem. If you still want it I can post it but I don't know that it will show any thing as you guys will probably play those 20 or 30 turns different than I did and have different results.

	30-05-2002 17:13									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: My biggest beef with the combat system: Ok so I want to use way out of date, non upgradable units (ie swordsman) against a technically superior foe, lets say infantry. So I want to suicide like 4 swordsman to maybe reduce the infantries hp. The infantry will win much of the time, and he will go up the ranks to veteran and elite. What bothers me is that if I have gotten this infantry down to 1 hp and he gets promoted, he goes up to 2 hp. Canceling out completly the last succesful attack! GRR! IMO the hp should not change after promotion, just the max hp.

Spot on. This is extremly annoying and very badly conceived. I think that either as you suggest the max hp should increase or it should be limited to one promotion per unit per turn. This should get rid of the occasions when after attacking you lose 3 or 4 units and the defender is hardly effected.

Graeme

	30-05-2002 19:12									#28
	Got spare money?

I don't know: if unit upgrading after a battle didn't increase their hit points, there would be a lot of "Yay! my warrior's elite! Wait, darn! he's dead. " I like to think that if someone actually becomes a better soldier by surviving a tough battle, they will actually be better able to survive the next battle 10 minutes later.
Restricting it to one upgrade per turn per unit is a good compromise, though.