27-05-2002 10:30									#1
	Evolution: A religion? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I personally beleive it is. Evolution cannot be proven, it requires one to have faith in it, and therefore meets my standards for a religion.

This has nothing to do with the truth of evolution, i will save that argument for later... maybe.

	27-05-2002 10:32									#2
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there was supposed to be a poll but i screwed up.

	27-05-2002 10:33									#3
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quote: [quote]re·li·gion Pronunciation Key (r-ljn) n. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

No, no, no, no, and no

Science is not a religion

	27-05-2002 10:40									#4
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Yes, evolution can't be "proven" with any certainty. But nothing can be proven with any certainty.

If evolution is a religion, so is everything else.

	27-05-2002 10:45									#5
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quote: A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion

perchance you are blind? I have seen countless people trying to convert me to Evolution.

maybe a cult then, a vast cult dedicated to chance?

	27-05-2002 10:46									#6
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"A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. "

Actually, I've seen a lot of that with Evolution and it is a definition for religeon. So, it just may be a religion.

	27-05-2002 10:48									#7
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then those people may be fanatical evolutionists...but I don't feel that that makes evolution a religion...

like Ramo said...if evolution is a religion, than it's also a religion to believe that I have typed this, as you can't prove it.

	27-05-2002 10:51									#8
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD I personally beleive it is. Evolution cannot be proven

Not only can it be proven, it has been proven. Not to the actively ignorant but that is not the same as unproven. Some people still think the world is flat but the fact is that is that it has proven pretty close to round.

quote: , it requires one to have faith in it, and therefore meets my standards for a religion.

It only requires knowledge no faith is needed.

quote: This has nothing to do with the truth of evolution, i will save that argument for later... maybe.

There was no truth in anything you said so far so its unlikely that you get around to using any in the future.

	27-05-2002 10:53									#9
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quote: Originally posted by orange then those people may be fanatical evolutionists...but I don't feel that that makes evolution a religion... like Ramo said...if evolution is a religion, than it's also a religion to believe that I have typed this, as you can't prove it.

As for the first thing, I have seen a LOT of people who are fanatical about evolution.

And there isn't a religion to believe that you typed that because it doesn't nearly meet any of the requirements in that list. Where as evolution does..

	27-05-2002 10:55									#10
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD perchance you are blind? I have seen countless people trying to convert me to Evolution.

Not convert. Show you reality. Its not the same thing as conversion. Unless of course the pain of thinking counts as conversion to you.

quote: maybe a cult then, a vast cult dedicated to chance?

Not chance. Environment. Evolution is not merely by chance. It is directed by the environment every bit as much as breeding dogs is directed by the breeders.

Chance only supplies the raw material of variation. It is the environment that directs the changes.

	27-05-2002 10:55									#11
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"Not only can it be proven, it has been proven. Not to the actively ignorant but that is not the same as unproven. Some people still think the world is flat but the fact is that is that it has proven pretty close to round. "

No, it hasn't been proven. There is absolutely no proof that we evolved from monkeys and apes. That theory has gotten so much recognition because it is the only thing science could reasonably come up with to counter growing creationism. Also, it was created by darwin, who believed it because of opposable thumbs and semi-upright walking of apes. That doesn't sound exactly like proof to me. Also, if we evolved from monkeys and apes, why do we still have monkeys and apes?

	27-05-2002 10:58									#12
	Re: Re: Evolution: A religion? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Not only can it be proven, it has been proven. Not to the actively ignorant but that is not the same as unproven. Some people still think the world is flat but the fact is that is that it has proven pretty close to round.

how has it been proven then... have they replicated it then?

quote: It only requires knowledge no faith is needed.

anyone who truely beleived in their religion would say the same thing about theirs.

	27-05-2002 11:03									#13
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This has been gone over 1000 times in these forums.

Yes, evolution has been proven. It has been observed in nature. The exact nature of HOW evolution happens is what is subject of many theories, but evolution is scientific fact.

Creationists always start posting here, make circular arguments and then run away crying. So to save you time, just read this:

www.talkorigins.org

And there you will have it. No more posts here required.

	27-05-2002 11:06									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred quote: maybe a cult then, a vast cult dedicated to chance? Not chance. Environment. Evolution is not merely by chance. It is directed by the environment every bit as much as breeding dogs is directed by the breeders. Chance only supplies the raw material of variation. It is the environment that directs the changes.

so you accept that it's a cult then?

	27-05-2002 11:06									#15
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I've read it. That doesn't solve the arguement. The evolution of creatures in the wild who survive purely on instinct and must evolve as instinct dictates does not prove that humans(independent thinkers) evolved from purely instinctal apes just because they have opposable thumbs. So until they watch a man pop out of a monkey, it's not proven.

	27-05-2002 11:08									#16
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quote: No, it hasn't been proven.

Sure it has. In the lab and in the field.

quote: There is absolutely no proof that we evolved from monkeys and apes.

There is lot of evidence but that is not needed to be FULLY proven to even the most actively ignorant to prove the FACT of evolution.

Evolution has IN FACT been shown to occur in laboratory experiments. The fossils are more than adequate evidence that we had ancestors that were not the same as modern humans.

quote: That theory has gotten so much recognition because it is the only thing science could reasonably come up with to counter growing creationism.

There is absolutely NOTHING that supports the nonsense called Creation Science. Even the ICR has NEVER even tried to prove they are right. They only try to obfuscate the truth. If they were right they could easily prove it. They can not prove it and they know it so they have never made the slightest effort to support themeselves.

quote: Also, it was created by darwin, who believed it because of opposable thumbs and semi-upright walking of apes. That doesn't sound exactly like proof to me. Also, if we evolved from monkeys and apes, why do we still have monkeys and apes?

It wasn't just Darwin's idea. Its clear from genetic evidence that chimps and gorrillas are our closest relative.

Why shouldn't we still have monkeys and apes? That you should even ask such a silly question shows how profoundly ignorant you are about evolution. You clearly have only learned about evolution from Creationists.

The line of apes split into three. The line that led to man split again after that as well but at present only Homo Sapien exists because our ancestors were the only line from the split that survived. However from the previous split we now have two kinds of chimps and two kinds of gorillas.

	27-05-2002 11:09									#17
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quote: Originally posted by gonzo_for_civ I've read it. That doesn't solve the arguement. The evolution of creatures in the wild who survive purely on instinct and must evolve as instinct dictates does not prove that humans(independent thinkers) evolved from purely instinctal apes just because they have opposable thumbs. So until they watch a man pop out of a monkey, it's not proven.

You just proved you haven't read anything and don't know anything. Evolution does not involve a man "popping out of a monkey." You don't know what evolution is, so how can you sit here and argue about it?

Just one of the many stupid Creationist notions...men popping out of monkeys.



Read it again...all of it: www.talkorigins.com

	27-05-2002 11:12									#18
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD how has it been proven then... have they replicated it then?

Thats how it was proven. Evolution has been shown in the lab by changing the environment. The test animals changed. That is replicating evolution in the lab.

quote: anyone who truely beleived in their religion would say the same thing about theirs.

Where is evidence to support creationism? There is none. There is megatons of fossils supporting the fact that life has changed over time. There are laboratory experiment showing that life changes over time in responce to enviromental change. You have NO evidence to support Creationism. Just this constant repetition of the same disproven nonsense.

	27-05-2002 11:13									#19
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quote: Also, if we evolved from monkeys and apes, why do we still have monkeys and apes?

Oh Lord...

How Creationists can still go about reciting this abject stupidity, something so simple to grasp yet they just don't get it...

Evolution does not say men evolved from apes like today's modern apes. It says that men and apes share a common ancestor.

Duh...

	27-05-2002 11:13									#20
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quote: The line of apes split into three.

And uhhh.... why did this happen... did they do it for fun???

"There is absolutely NOTHING that supports the nonsense called Creation Science. Even the ICR has NEVER even tried to prove they are right. They only try to obfuscate the truth. If they were right they could easily prove it. They can not prove it and they know it so they have never made the slightest effort to support themeselves. "

The question is: Can you disprove creation science?

Now, I am not a expert in either field but I do know that the bible is found to have MANY historical accuracies which raises a question why would someone write some true stuff and throw in a couple lies??


To boris:
You just proved you haven't read anything and don't know anything. Evolution does not involve a man "popping out of a monkey." You don't know what evolution is, so how can you sit here and argue about it?

I know i said a man popping out of a monkey but I was being very blunt. I know that no men are going to pop out of monkeys.

	27-05-2002 11:13									#21
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD so you accept that it's a cult then?

I accept that you are a distortionist. I never said anything remotely cult like and only the active ignorance that is needed by creationists could possibly have generated that ridiculous statement of yours.

	27-05-2002 11:14									#22
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Fruit fly evolution: http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories...uitfly_9457.asp

And how about antibiotic-resistant bacteria?

There has been done experiments with fruit flies showing the formation of new species. They were breeding one species of fruit flies under very harsh conditions. After many generations, the surviving flies had changed so much that they could no longer breed with the original flies. That's evolution to me at least...

	27-05-2002 11:16									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Oh Lord... How Creationists can still go about reciting this abject stupidity, something so simple to grasp yet they just don't get it... Evolution does not say men evolved from apes like today's modern apes. It says that men and apes share a common ancestor. Duh...

Actually, that's a stolen quote, i didn't think of it and I dont' even support it.

"Oh Lord..."

Hypocracy

And of course, this thread has gotten grossly off topic seeing as how it was originally a debate over whether or not evolution could be classified as religeon.

	27-05-2002 11:16									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Thats how it was proven. Evolution has been shown in the lab by changing the environment. The test animals changed. That is replicating evolution in the lab.

What type of changes can you be more specific. what type of changes could have possibly prompted an evolution into man?

quote: Where is evidence to support creationism? There is none. There is megatons of fossils supporting the fact that life has changed over time. There are laboratory experiment showing that life changes over time in responce to enviromental change. You have NO evidence to support Creationism. Just this constant repetition of the same disproven nonsense.

Disproven? how?

	27-05-2002 11:17									#25
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quote: Originally posted by gonzo_for_civ The question is: Can you disprove creation science?

And can you disprove that the moon is made of cheese?

	27-05-2002 11:18									#26
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A final remark on the whole evolution science thing. For mr. fruit flies: Read my post above, it's about 5-6 up i think. It's called animal instinct.

	27-05-2002 11:21									#27
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"And can you disprove that the moon is made of cheese? "

myself, no, NASA, yes.

	27-05-2002 11:21									#28
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quote: Originally posted by gonzo_for_civ And uhhh.... why did this happen... did they do it for fun???

No species has split for fun. Its from enviromental pressure and isolation.

quote: The question is: Can you disprove creation science?

Its hard to disprove something that doesn't exist. There is no science involved in creationism. However the world is billions of years old and that is more enough evidence that the ICR is wrong as they insist the world is only around 6000 years old.

quote: Now, I am not a expert in either field but I do know that the bible is found to have MANY historical accuracies which raises a question why would someone write some true stuff and throw in a couple lies??

Why indeed? Most likely they weren't lying just ignorant. Now the ICR is big on lies. They lie frequently. The Bible has many innaccuracies as well. The Flood never happened. The world is not 6000 years old. There was no Tower of Bable.

quote: I know i said a man popping out of a monkey but I was being very blunt. I know that no men are going to pop out of monkeys.

You were being profoundly silly not blunt. Men evolved from something that was not the same as modern monkeys. Probably was very monkey like though. Species change over time not in a single birth.

	27-05-2002 11:21									#29
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quote: Originally posted by gonzo_for_civ A final remark on the whole evolution science thing. For mr. fruit flies: Read my post above, it's about 5-6 up i think. It's called animal instinct.

In other words, what scientists refer to as "evolution" is really animal instinct and the real meaning of the word "evolution" would be the popping out of men from monkeys?

	27-05-2002 11:22									#30
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quote: Originally posted by gonzo_for_civ "And can you disprove that the moon is made of cheese? " myself, no, NASA, yes.

Only if you believe they are telling you the truth

Edit: my point is that just because you cannot disprove something does not mean it's true.