27-05-2002 23:10									#1
	Unique Units Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

As i was thinking of other new concepts from "that game" i was wondering how/can the Unique Unit's could be fitted into CTP2. I think its a very good idea, but wasnt really executed properly. From my experience i found them only useful for rushing wonders, as i wasnt really interested in conquest (not without PROPER stacking ) and would only luckily gain them through ridding my territory of barbs, which wasnt all that often.

Well anyway back to me point... one idea is that there could be seperate ''dead end branches'' on the tech tree, if you like. And the first Civ to discover this "branch" would gain that special advance and the asscociated UU that comes with it. And then blocking any other civ from researching that advance, in the kind of way the gunpowder feat is completed, except excluding the UU and the advance thereafter, to all other civs. Thats the hard part. Heck i dont know if its even possible I just like the idea of UU's and it could only make the game even more engrossing.. any other ideas of how this could be implemented would be welcome..

	28-05-2002 03:09									#2
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To UU or not to UU, that is the big hairy question

Light side:

Gives your civ more identity
Can be fun to rush to your prefered unit

Dark side:

Name some games that balance UU's perfectly so the game is both balanced and you can play any 'nation' with no penalty.
Name some games where UU's unbalance the game and you find yourself playing the same 'nation' over and over.

This is the fundemental problem with UU's, especially in a game like Civ/CTP2 etc. There have been a few threads that have touched on it and in CTP2 the nearest you can get to it is either with the 'super units' of Craddle(Ceasar etc) or in MedMod with the 'zulu' units etc.
I like the idea on some levels - even if each civ just had different names+Sprites per unit, but their combat values were the same for example.
Yep it's a tough one......

	28-05-2002 12:22									#3
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well i thought i had cancelled this thread just before it went through, i was doing a quick search for threads on the same subject and decided to cancel it as it was going through i thought it may be repeating, but thanks for replying

Anyway to carry on from what you said, the plus points. Well in my thinking i had considered a flexible UU, which could be reached by the first Civ to "discover" it if you like. Like not simply choosing a civ at the start and gaining their UU, but racing towards the desired UU.

Or, which i think is more fair, a random chance at the beginning of each game to which UU you get. ie no choice in the matter. Then if you get say an ancient age UU, you better get your socks on and use its advantages now while theyre still formidable to the opposition. While this would be more fair and exciting to play (for me anyway) it might not be everyones cup of tea, for example playing as the England and having an elephant as your UU.

I know it can have a hugely unbalancing effect. Especially if the UU are all in different eras. Their combat values and cost have to be perfect so as not to make the advantage too over-powering. But frankly "paper, scissors, stone" is the only game ive played that wasnt unbalanced.. naughts and crosses too. anyway

	28-05-2002 14:50									#4
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He!he! Yeah sometimes apolyton is like a wild animal and does its own thing - i get nervous when i write a reply and it 'times out' on me Still i've perfected a system where by if it does time out and i have to sign in again after trying to post, i just click 'back' in explorer twice and click refresh - 99% of the time it works ok.
As to the UU thing, well the nearset i've played to it where it is very specific is AOE, and it never bothered me that much as i always like to play as the Celts out of the choices available anyway. In terms of a civ type game, well i still haven't played Civ3 yet so you may have more experience than me as to how it actually plays - is a good/bad thing, is it worth doing if say the game is pretty much over by the time your civ's UU comes around etc. I know a few people really hate the idea of CTP2 going this way, and i can see there point of view. Still some added 'personality' to your civ in CTP2 is IMHO a good thing to try to achieve, how exactly is the best way to do this another matter. For the record i'd like to see each civ having unique sprites for all it's units - based as much as possible on historical records. This was discussed a bit and everyone was agreed on one thing - it would be a HUGE amount of work to try to do and there may be restrictions within CTP2.exe as to how many sprites you can have in a single game.And most people felt the results verses the work involved would not really make it worth while to attempt. I disagree with the last bit and if ever i get time to really look into this game it's something i may play with one day(no-one hold their breath - i enjoy playing CTP2, and barely find time for that!). And yeah who ever invented 'paper,sicissors,stone' should be awarded some kind of United Nations award for services to humanity, if only all diplomatic problems were resolved this way the world would be a better place

	28-05-2002 15:09									#5
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I presume there's the same limit as in CTP1 of 199 sprites - so you'd be hard-pressed to get much variation. Maybe in a mod which focused on a certain era, but not over all history...

	29-05-2002 17:22									#6
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Does anyone know if there is anyone working on UU's specifically at the moment? I did a quick search and there was someone but he gave up the ghost a while ago for civ3

	29-05-2002 19:27									#7
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Depending on how the UU system is set up, there isn't too much work to be done, the bulk of it will be finding the sprites. I think Locutus is looking vaguely at it for his new Mod, but finding the sprites is going to be hardest.

	29-05-2002 22:29									#8
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Name some games that balance UU's perfectly so the game is both balanced and you can play any 'nation' with no penalty. Name some games where UU's unbalance the game and you find yourself playing the same 'nation' over and over.

Actual this is the sense of UU to give you a speacial advance over the other civs. But you are right on the problem, too. Therefore it is better to give them randomly. But the disadvantage of this method is that the civs aren't less unique then unique units for every civ personally would be.

-Martin

	29-05-2002 22:52									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I like the idea that it makes the you use a different strategy for each nation you play, even if it will become obvious which strategy to use and when.
For example, the English could have the spitfire as their UU, give it far superior stats and it would encourage the player to have a strong/er airforce. BTW i dont think the spitfire is the best choice UU for the english. And maybe its too late in the game for some i know dont play that far into the game, me included.

Maybe if there isnt enough sprites, then maybe there needs to be alot less Civs to choose from. To make them totally unique rather than a few looking very similar.

	30-05-2002 00:41									#10
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Unless you divide the civs into groups.
Like Mediterran, Mid-Eastern, Far-Eastern, African (Tribal?), American...

Or into their real-life golden age. Like Industrial age civs(Musketeer), Ancient age civs(Chariot, Immortal), Medieval Age (Samurai, Berserker), Classical Age Civs(Phalanx, Legion), Information Age (Mig, F-15, Marines)...

	30-05-2002 03:10									#11
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And how about Civilizations, like the Hebrews, or to an even greater extent, the Egyptians and especially Chinese, that have experienced multiple Golden Ages, with a period of Mediocrity in between.

I'd just love to see a game that could show case That!

Maybe Locutus' Mod/Sequel could do it? Now, if only he weren't on Vacation . . .

	30-05-2002 03:58									#12
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...I think the plan is to get his actual vacation out of the way in early summer, and then give him until September to produce the basis of his CtP3 mod.

Multiple 'golden ages' are probably conceivable, depending on your definiton of 'golden age', but then why choose a civ that gets one if there are civs that get two?

	30-05-2002 04:42									#13
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Well, I'm Jewish, so let's start there:

As the Israelites, we had a pretty good Tyrany going, until that is, Famine drove us to Egypt, (so the legends say, anyway) until they kicked us out, probably starting with the Hyskos, and then moving on to their friends.

Once back home, we kicked out the Peoples who had moved in after us, and then set up a set of Tribal Councils, before being beaten by the Babylonians, who then, also, kicked us out (ever get the feeling that you're not wanted).

After a period of Anarchy, we finally managed to found a fairly Strong Kingdom, which then suffered a Civil War.

Within a Century, or two, after that, the Assyrians Conquered Israel, and almost beat Judah, before being beaten in turn, by the Persians.

It is now, that we get into True Historical Accounts, and the time, for another post.

	30-05-2002 04:54									#14
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Meanwhile . . .

A Macedonian Prince, named Alexander, after being emboldened by his father's Victories, and Tutored by a Great Greek Sage, was having dreams of World Domination.

Towards the middle of his Conquests, after Capturing Greece, and on the Road to Egypt, he found Judah and added it to his Empire, some say without a Fight.

After Alexander, now called The Great, as he went on to Conquer much of the Classical World, died, his Kingdom fell into the Hands of his Generals.

One of these Generals, forced my People, to worship his Gods, instead of our own, so we Revolted, and in our First True Millitary Victory, in a Thousand Years, regained our Freedom.

But this was not to last.

	30-05-2002 05:13									#15
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We then fell into the Roman, again with only Token Defense, if any, and were allowed to keep our beliefs, unmolested.

Until, that is, the Romans became too greedy, and taxed us heavily.

Eventually, we Revolted again, but History did not repeat itself, and in a cycle of Destruction and Revolt, we were beaten, eventually even losing our Stronghold, at Masada, and we were Banished from our homes, seemingly for good.

Even in exile, we pioneered, what later became known as, the Polish Plains, and made a good life for ourselves, before being kicked out, yet again, and becoming a City Folk.

It is there that our Story would end, were it not for Three Movements, Zionism, Nazism, and the British Commonwealth.

As the Nazis Murdered us in Europe, the Zionists continued their Pledge to Retake Israel, now, rather inconveniently, in the hands of the British, and their Palestinian Subjects.

After the War, However, we were given a New Chance, in the Form of our Own State.

The Road after that was long, and is still, regretably, unfinished, but every Israeli Soldier remembers our History, when they take this Vow, "Masada must Never, fall again!"

Now, let's see if we can put a Saga like that, into a Game!

	30-05-2002 05:20									#16
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In other words, is there any way to code a Minor Golden Age, that makes Everybody Hate you , then enslave you , then conquer you , but you finally manage to Claw your way back up, to a Modern Day Golden Age , that unfortunately, also makes everybody hate you?

Contrast this with the British, who had a Three Hundred Year long GOLDEN AGE, which, so far at least, hasn't bitten them in the Butt!

Last edited by ZaphodBeeblebrx on 30-05-2002 at 05:28

	30-05-2002 16:43									#17
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Sorry to rain on your period but there is no evidence f mass slavery in Egypt so I think that blows the first section in to oblivion.(actually quit the opposite most builders of Egypt show signs of being look after greatly by doctors etc

So sorry half you works gone and for the other hard very hard to put in ctp2

	30-05-2002 17:35									#18
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quote: period

parade, possibly?

Its not so much impossible to put this into CtP2, but it would give the game rather a rigid structure, and force you to follow a storyline that, lets face it, isn't very nice. It might make a good scenario, but for a mod, the aim is usually to present a way to rewrite history as it might have been if...[something]

	30-05-2002 17:49									#19
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Big Mc, you hit 500 posts, have an avatar

Attachment: bigmc.jpg
This has been downloaded 90 time(s).

	30-05-2002 17:54									#20
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i got to 500 post. no way

	31-05-2002 01:29									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Its not so much impossible to put this into CtP2, but it would give the game rather a rigid structure, and force you to follow a storyline that, lets face it, isn't very nice. It might make a good scenario, but for a mod, the aim is usually to present a way to rewrite history as it might have been if...[something]

This is exaclywhy i would never put it into a mod. As i said a long before, i want to rewrite history not relive it.

	31-05-2002 09:01									#22
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Well, that's exactly why I was thinking of Locutus' CtP3 Mod.

His Concept of Religions as Multiple, mutually exclusive, Advances, would make this sort of Progression, a natural consequence, of either Forward, or Backward, Thinking.

In other words, before you could Research either Christianity, or Islam, someone, and if it penalizes a Civilization enough, not you, would have to Research Judaism, first.

Furthermore, once the Timeline reaches the Middle Ages there could be an option for a Civilization who stayed, perhaps Stupidly, on the Judaism Branch, to Research Rabbinic Judaism, instead.

Now, this would be a Very weak branch Millitarily, but it would provide a lot of Unconventional Attacks, probably related to Scholarship, Banking, or even Infiltration, e.g. False Conversion, Techniques.

This would all be to Enforce an Uneasy Status Quo, perhaps even slightly to their disadvantage, with a Civilization on The Christian Branch, and a Peaceful Coexistence, with someone on the Muslim Branch.

Moreover, a Civilization on the Muslim Branch, would have a slight Millitary Advantage, over one, on the Christian Branch, thereby creating the "I Kill you, he Kills me, you Kill him" Trade-Off, that has made Rock, Scissors, Paper, so Successful.

As to IW's Observation, that this would force a Player to deal with a Situation that, to put it mildly, isn't very nice; well, I thought that you guys Wanted, a Challenge

Oh well, I guess that you would have to be Crazy, or Suicidal, or maybe even both, to stay on such a Research Branch through the Middle Ages, but the Pay-Off would come in the Modern Era, and the Weapons that have allowed a Tiny State, to defeat a Succession, of othewise Stronger Opponents, and the, near, Suicidal Craziness, to use them!

	31-05-2002 09:29									#23
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Well, Big MC, technically it's only 1/8 of my work, and I'm okay with that

But, seriously, there is evidence of Semitic Rule, in Egypt, e.g. the Hyskos, prior to the reign of Ramses II, and Genetic Evidence, that the Jewish Priestly Line, began around the Same Period. The rest is, still, kinda murky, but what else would you expect from a Story, that has become more Myth, than Fact.

Edit: Er, Hyksos, darn Lesdyxia kickin' in, again!

D'oh!

BTW, Congratulations on the New Avatar, you look good enough to Eat

Last edited by ZaphodBeeblebrx on 31-05-2002 at 10:13

	31-05-2002 11:23									#24
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quote: Originally posted by ZaphodBeeblebrx In other words, before you could Research either Christianity, or Islam, someone, and if it penalizes a Civilization enough, not you, would have to Research Judaism, first. Furthermore, once the Timeline reaches the Middle Ages there could be an option for a Civilization who stayed, perhaps Stupidly, on the Judaism Branch, to Research Rabbinic Judaism, instead. Now, this would be a Very weak branch Millitarily, but it would provide a lot of Unconventional Attacks, probably related to Scholarship, Banking, or even Infiltration, e.g. False Conversion, Techniques.

The problem here is that players would avoid this Judaism Branch, because it would make the player too weak, espeacily with a strong AI, for the AI in the original game I would do it. Actual this is my strategy in the original game first neglect military to gain a lot of advantages in techs and city buildings and then when I established myself I build up an army, to conquer the world. But a strong AI like in Cradle could defeat me easily, so I would avoid it. And if an AI would do it, it would be then to far behind in since and tech it couldn't be a thraed if it would you just attack with obsolete armies. If such a situation occurs than I would be able to take this change to wipe out this civ before it could gain power again. So weak AIs are not good. Therefore the eveery religion should give the player advantages and disadvantages. The ratio between advantages and disadvantages must be well balanced of course.

-Martin

	31-05-2002 12:04									#25
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Alright, now what if the Early Days, of the Judaism Branch, were Very Enticing.

If it offered, for instance, a couple of Powerful Wonders, i.e. The Arc of The Covenant, which would not only offer a Millitary Advantage, possibly deteriorating with range, to reflect Marching Distances, but would also be impossible to Capture, except through Civil War, and Solomon's Temple, which would provide a Happiness Boost, as well as attracting Trade, perhaps over and above, the Visible Wonder Mod's effect.

Unfortunately, when the Arc goes Obsolete, you will find yourself Surrounded, by Angry Neighbors, whom the Arc's Range Limit kept you from Destroying Completely, and sitting on Several, Important Trade Routes

	31-05-2002 13:12									#26
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make it into a scenario then man you seam to want it badly.

but from your amount of post I think your fishing for some one else to do it.

	31-05-2002 14:13									#27
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A little bit from Collumn A, a little bit from Collumn B.

I would make it into a Scenario if I felt that I could do it justice, unfortunately my Programming Skills are pretty much limited to Pretty Pictures.

Even more importantly, though, is the fact that with a little streamlining, this idea could become an interesting facet of a Multiple Religion Mod, as well as provide a Very Accurate depiction of the Socio-Political Atmosphere, that pervaded the Medieval Era, in all its Glory, Grit, and in Europe at least, its Sheer Ignorance.

	31-05-2002 14:46									#28
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Pretty pictures in slic

sorry but slic has never seen Pretty pictures so I think your out of it then