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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:19
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Recent posts on this forum have shown me that many here strongly disbelieve in God, some even holding out-and-out contempt for any of those who do. I ask that those who have written off the existence of God to please read this post with an open mind. I know it may be hard for those who have never believed in god to even consider the matter for a moment. I certainly would be skeptical if you asked me to believe in 30 ft pink penguins, but I kindly ask that you try to do your best in spite of these internal biases in maintaining an open mind for the extent of this thread. Please. 
Certainly, one of the most powerful pieces of evidence for the existence of God to arise in the new millennium has been the shroud of Turin. Though once considered debunked in the 1980’s with a carbon-dating test that placed it being created in the early middle ages, these tests have now been thoroughly proven flawed in 2001 by advanced carbon dating studies. These Findings show that the carbon-14 dating test done in the 80s was highly flawed due to fungal growth on the shroud, in conjunction with excessive handling over the centuries, and a fire in the middle ages. Three similar pieces of material which were subject to similar conditions ALL suffered carbon 14 dating inconsistencies showing them to be about 1200-1300 years newer than they actually are.. These revelations have had a farther reaching effect that just the shroud. Many ancient artifacts, which were once considered worthless frauds, are now in the process of being round up by museums and collectors as genuine.
Most startling of all recent developments is that findings in 2001 reveal that the image on the shroud was formed by a burst of radiation which was emitted by the body beneath the shroud. Rigorous study of the effects of radiation on fabrics confirm this. The information regarding radiation needed to even attempt to create something similar to the shroud weren’t available until the 1940’s and science still is unable to this day cause a body of living creature emit a burst of radiation in the way the body beneath the shroud did so. (For more on this interesting subject, visit this site . For more information of this interesting subject visit http://www.resurrectionoftheshroud....proposal11.html)
Here is what is known about the shroud
Infinitesimal Microscopic samples of splinters of wood have been found near the wound areas, and traces of a bacteria that are used to create vinegar, which the guards are said to have thrown on him during the crucifixtion, just examples of small a large number of small details that have been invisible to the naked eye and impossible to detect until very recently
The body that appears on the Shroud is naked. Under Roman law, criminals were whipped and executed in the nude. (These are facts that most medieval artists would not have known, or if they had known, would not have dared to publicly reproduce.)
The man that appears on the Shroud was crucified with nails driven through his wrists. Although artists throughout the centuries (and even stigmatists) have traditionally thought that Christ was nailed to the cross through his palms, it is now known that crucifixion victims were nailed to crosses through their wrists. This is supported both by archeological digs that discovered crucifixion victims with spike marks on their wrists (not palms) and also by studies that were conducted on corpses which proved that nails in palms will not support the weight of a body.
The life-size image on the cloth is NOT the result of pigment, stain, acid, dye, or any applied material. The image itself is confined to the top-most fibrils of the cloth's fibers. Whatever made the image did not penetrate the fibers of the cloth as all known artistic materials would.
The image on the Shroud is uniquely three-dimensional. Although most scientists believe that the image was made by the body emitting a burst of radiation (which caused the body's image to be lightly burned onto the Shroud), they have no idea how this could have been done. Efforts to lightly burn images into shroud-like fabrics have all failed to reproduce the extraordinarily delicate, detailed, three-dimensional effect found on the Shroud. The way the image was burned onto the Shroud is also flawlessly accurate in terms of how a body emitting energy would imprint itself on a cloth that was covering it.
The image of the Shroud is absolutely accurate in both anatomical and physiological details.
The anatomical and physiological details of the Shroud accurately record what would happen to a man who experienced a Roman-style crucifixion (see Robert Bucklin's pathological which follows shortly).
The Shroud is stained by human blood that has run out of the image's wounds. The way the blood flowed, puddled and stained the Shroud are perfectly correct. Unlike the Shroud's image which only appears on the topmost fibrils of fabric, the blood on the Shroud soaked deeply into the fabric.
The exact way the man was crucified closely matches biblical accounts of Jesus's crucifixion. Among other things, there are 120 lesions, the shape of dumbbells, distributed over the back and running around the front of the body--probably caused by a Roman whip called a flagrum whose thongs were tipped with bits of lead or bone. There is a deep wound on the right side of the body between the ribs which bled profusely (which is what Biblical records indicate happened when a spear was thrust into Christ's side). There are thorn-like marks on the victim's head (possibly from a crown of thorns). And the victim's legs were not broken (which is significant both because Roman-style crucifixions ended with their victim's legs being broken and because the New Testament account of Christ's death indicates that this was a Roman custom which Jesus was spared from).
The beard and hair style of the crucified man were not common anywhere in the Roman Empire except Palestine. The image has semitic features, including sidelocks and a unplaited ponytail.
The shroud features a water/blood serum on the side of the body where a post-mortem spear wound was inflicted, just as described in the bible.
The Shroud itself was woven with techniques common to the first century. The Shroud's distinctive weave is so rare that researchers seeking to find a control sample could not find one anywhere in the world.
A dirt sample taken from near the Shroud image's feet was identified as a relatively rare form of calcium carbonate. Samples of dirt taken from Jerusalem revealed an unusually close match. This strongly suggests the man pictured on the Shroud was crucified in Palestine.
58 varieties of pollen were discovered on the Shroud. 11 of the pollen samples were from plants that do not exist in Europe, but which do exist in the Near East. The pollen samples also indicated that the fabric of the Shroud had to have been made in Palestine before circulating in Europe. Pollen samples also helped trace the Shroud's route from Palestine through Anatolia and Constantinople into Europe. Furthermore, two of the pollen samples that were discovered on the Shroud coincided with highly distinctive plants found in the region surrounding Jerusalem. The pollen study concluded that the Shroud itself was probably made near Jerusalem and that it had been in the vicinity of the Holy City for some time before being transported out of the area.
Images of 28 different types of flowers, small bushes, and thorns have been detected in bunches around the Shroud image. All 28 grow in Israel, either in Jerusalem or in the nearby desert or Dead Sea area. Most of them are not found in Europe. 25 of the 28 flowers matched the pollen samples found on the Shroud. 27 of the 28 plants bloom during March and April, which corresponds to the time of the crucifixion.
An image of a coin appears over the right eye of the Shroud image. This coin, a very rare Pontius Pilate lepton struck in 29 to 32 A.D., was not found until 1977 with the advent of modern technology. It was a common burial custom to place coins over the eyes of the dead in the middle east at this time.
Some historians believe the Shroud of Turin may be The Mandylion, or Edessa Portrait, a holy relic mentioned in some accounts as early as the first century. If this is so, then the Shroud can be traced, through various legends and stories, all the way back to first century Jerusalem.
And finally, Robert Bucklin, deputy coroner of Los Angeles and a member of The Shroud of Turin Research Team, compiled the following pathological report concerning the Shroud:
"There is no problem in diagnosing what happened to this individual. The pathology and physiology are unquestionable and represent medical knowledge unknown 150 years ago.
"This is a 5-foot-11-inch male Caucasian weighing about 178 pounds. The lesions are as follows: Beginning at the head, there are blood flows from numerous puncture wounds on the top and back of the scalp and forehead. The man has been beaten about the face. There is a swelling over one cheek, and he undoubtedly has a black eye. His nose tip is abraded, as would occur from a fall, and it appears that the nasal cartilage may have separated from the bone.
"There is a wound in the left wrist, the right one being covered by the left hand. This is the typical lesion of a crucifixion. There is a stream of blood down both arms. Here and there, there are blood drips at an angle from the main blood flow in response to gravity. These angles represent the only ones that can occur from the only two positions which can be taken by a body during crucifixion.
"On the back and front there are lesions which appear to be scourge marks. The victim was whipped from both sides by two men, one of whom was taller than the other, as demonstrated by the angle of the thongs.
"There is a rough swelling of both shoulders, with abrasions indicating that something heavy and rough had been carried across the man's shoulders within hours of death.
"On the right flank, a long, narrow blade of some type entered in an upward direction, pierced the diaphragm, penetrated the thoracic cavity through the lung into the heart. This was a post-mortem event (it happened after the man was already dead), because separate components of red blood cells and clear serum drained from the lesion. Later, after the corpse was laid out horizontally and face up on the cloth, blood dribbled out of the side wound and puddled along the small of the back.
"There is an abrasion of one knee, commensurate with a fall; and finally, a spike had been driven through both feet, and blood had leaked from both wounds onto the cloth.
"The evidence of a scourged man who was crucified and died from cardiopulmonary failure typical of crucifixion is clear-cut."
Much has been made regarding how amazing the shroud was, but skeptics have always just fallen back on the C-14 dating. Well I am going to suggest a new paradigm for the dating of the shroud. If this shroud was created by a medevil forger, then he would have had to
-encode image on only the most superficial fibrils of the cloth’s threads.
-transfer an image so low in contrast that it fades in the background when an observer stands within six feet of it
-create an image so pressure independent so that both frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same intensity, even though the dorsal side of the cloth would have had the full weight of a body lying on top of it.
-Use an image-forming mechanism that operates uniformly regardless of what lies beneath it, i.e, over diverse substances such as skin, hair, and possibly coins, flowers, teeth and bones.
-encode thousands of body image fibrils with the same intensity
-create an image that is not composed of any particles or foreign materials of any kinds , with the individual joints of it’s individual fibrils remaining distinct and visible
-create an image that is not soluble in water, remains stable when subjected to high temperatures, and does not demonstrate signs of matting, capillarity, saturation, or diffusion into the image forming fibrils.
-encode an image that lacks and evidence of two-dimensional directionality (which would indicate brush strokes and the like)
-encode the front and back full-length images on cloth of a real human being in rgor mortis
-encode a superficial, resolved and three dimensional image of the closed eye over the different and invisible features of a coin
-transfer the blood marks before encoding the body images, yet still place them in the approiate locations and ensure that the blood marks are not altered when the body image is later transferred to cloth.
-create actual blood marks around the edges of the various wounds
-reproduce blood marks incurred at different times and with different instruments that correspond with both arterial and venous bleeding
-encode blood marks on the cloth in exactly the form and shape that develop from wounds on human skin
-remove the body from the cloth within two to three days (due to no sign of decomposition on the body and stains and so forth on the cloth)
-employ a mechanism that transfers distance information through space in vertical, straight line paths
-produce an image that is a vague negative when observed by the naked eye, but with highly focused and finely resolved details that become visible only when photographed, at which point the negative turns into a positive images with light/dark and left/right reversed
-encode accurately proportioned, three-dimensional information on a two-dimensional surface that directly corresponds to the distances between a body and cloth
-include realistic details of scourge marks so minute that they are invisible to the naked eye and can only be seen with cameras, microscopes and ultraviolet lighting
-encode a line representing the narrow lesion of the side wound that correseponds to the shape of the lancea used by roman exectutioners in such a manner that the line would not be visible with the eye and could not be seen until the development of computer imaging technology 600 years later
-distribute an array of pollens onto the shroud beneath the linens threads and fibers that reflected it’s manufacture and history in Jersualem and it’s journey to Turkey. To do this successfully, the forger would not only have to be a pollen expert, but also anticipate development of the theory that emerged 600 years later that asserts the shroud, mandylion, and image of edessa (shrouds which bare a virtually exact similarity to what we know as the shroud of turin based on various descriptions and pictures)
-encode the subtle appearance of Judean plants in the off-image area of the shroud that would not be seen for more than six centuries
-place microscopic samples of dirt and limestone at the foot of the man in the shroud that match the limestone almost uniquely found in Jerusalem, but which would not be visible for more than six centuries
-encode the appearance of a Pontius pilate lepton over the right eye of the man so that only when photography, photographic enlargers and three-dimensional reliefs are invented 600 years later, the motif, letters, and outline of the coin can be ascertained. The forger would not only have to anticipate this technology, but also the development of the field of archaeology and the discovery in the late-twentieth century that the coins were used in burials in Jerusalem and the surrounding area between the first century BC and the first century AD.
-Encode the wound on the cloth at the man’s left side so that when the image was photographed 500 years later, the wound would be located in the precisely correct location on the man’s right side so that blood and water would escape from the victim if he receieved a postmortem wound at this location.
To encode these features, our forger would not only have to have to understood advanced scientific principles, but also have possessed a knowledge of anatomy and medicine that was centuries ahead of his time. Obviously, it would have been impossible for him to have possessed such knowledge and understanding, but even if he had somehow, he still couldn’t have seen any of these numerous features to know if he was getting them right. The technology needed to visualize them would not be developed for another five to six hundred years.
It’s been truthfully said that the Shroud is either the absolute most amazing forgery in history, or it is the burial shroud of Jesus Christ. It is also the only image in history to go from being a mysterious image, to a photographic negative, to a three-dimensional relief as technology evolved. Many of the scientists who began thoroughly researching the shroud in the 70’s thought they would prove it a fraud in five minutes, but instead it has been the one relic to amaze scientists more and more the closer they look at it. I personally believe that the shroud is God’s gift for this very time. A gift to help non-believers believe even when many scientists claim to have made God obsolete. I thank all of you who have taken the time to read this through until the end, and I hope that, at very least, you have honestly considered the contents of this thread. 
Last edited by monkspider on 28-05-2002 at 13:45
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:19
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URs quote(the first one) sums up my opinion on the issue.
Last edited by Eli on 28-05-2002 at 14:23
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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:19
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well, it does show that someone who matches the details of Jesus' crucifixtion perfectly, and something miraculous imprinted an image the length and width of a male, Jew's body. It certainly, at very least, helps corroborate the ressurection of Jesus, which is really at the heart of the birth of the beginnings of the Christian faith.
I have also read some theories which involve a body dematerializing, and this dematerialization would create enough radiation as to burn the image onto the shroud, and the way this radiation is formed it would explain why the flowers, and coins and so forth were encoded on the shroud. I really don't know enough about the science behind this to comment on it myself, but if anyone is interested I can try to get some more information on these theories.
Thanks for taking the time to read my post, by the way, Vagrant.
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Joe R. Golowka
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Earth, Sol System, Milky Way
Jul 2001
time: 23:19
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100% proof of almost anything is impossible. That's what we have things like Occam's Razor for. From a historical perspective there are many problems with your Jesus hypothosis.
First off, let's look at the historical record. If Jesus died and was ressurected as told by the bible this would have been a major historic event, one that the people in the area noticed. But when we look at what people from that time period wrote, they say nothing about it. There are ancient historians who lived in that time period and wrote extensively on much more minor things yet said absolutely nothing about a guy getting ressurected from the dead. The bible wasn't written until a hundred years after the guy supposidly died and most other references to him don't start until long after this alleged event. The logical conclusion is that Jesus never rose from the dead.
That, combined with the numerous other problems with Christianity (contradictions in the bible, factual errors, the problem of evil, etc.) make the Jesus explanation extremely unlikely. Space aliens is a more likely explanation, though there really isn't enough evidence to conclude that at this time.
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Lemmy
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Bubblewrap
Dec 2000
time: 06:19
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i haven't read the entire post, but from what i read, it only proves that Jesus could have really existed, and that that person in the shroud, emitted some weird radioactive burst, right?
one word....Aliens
All this god bussiness is just a big alien conspiracy to enslave the human race. When the earth has reached a certain technological level, and most people have the same religion, t hey will come to earth, and claim they are god, and enslave all the religious people, we the Atheists, will be the only one who don't believe they are gods, and will ultimately rescue all the believers, thus becoming gods, well, at least Saints, ourselves.
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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:19
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Thanks for the reply Joe, First off, although there are numerous reasons for it being perfectly reasonable to believe in God, those are best saved for another thread. I'm trying to not get this thread off on too far of a tangent. And As far as history goes, there is a jewish historian who talks about Jesus named Josepheus (possible sp), I'm not aware of any other contemporary historical records, aside from the new testament, but given the state of war that Isreal faced in the first century AD, it is possible that any other Jewish historical records may have been lost. In any event, what we do know is this: A man named Jesus came to Jerusalem and spoke with unprecedented authority, and the very origin of the Christian faith implies the reality of the resurrection. We all know that Christianity sprang into being in the middle of the first century. Where did it come from? Why did it arise? Well, all scholars agree that Christianity came into being because the original disciples believed that God had raised Jesus from the dead, and they proclaimed this message everywhere that they went. Their account of the ressurection in the New Testament matches the image on the shroud perfectly, with many details (such as the size of the lance wound) not being confirmed until the advent of technology of the last thirty years, or even in some cases, the last two or three years. And like I said, I can't prove with some kind of mathematical certainity that this cloth actually housed Jesus Christ, but at least it certainly does make you think.
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Clear Skies
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looking for a saviour in these dirty streets
Jul 2000
time: 05:19
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Ooh, using Occam's Razor to disprove the existence of God. Very Contact-esque.
ELLIE Hey, I’ve got one for you.
PALMER What have you got?
ELLIE Occam's Razor, you ever heard of it?
PALMER Hackem’s Razor, sounds like some slasher movie.
ELLIE No, Occam's Razor, it’s a basic scientific principle. And it says, all things being equal, the simplest explanation tends to be the right one.
PALMER Make sense to me.
ELLIE Alright. So what’s more likely (Joss puts his jacket around Ellie), thank you...
PALMER You’re welcome.
ELLIE ...An all powerful and mysterious God created the Universe, and then decided not to give any proof of his existence, or that he simply doesn’t exist at all, and that we created him so that we didn’t have to feel so small and alone?
PALMER I don’t know. I couldn’t imagine living in a world where God didn’t exist. I wouldn’t want to.
ELLIE How do you know your not deluding yourself? As for me, I’d need proof.
PALMER Proof. Did you love your father?
ELLIE Huh?
PALMER Your Dad, did you love him?
ELLIE Yes, very much.
PALMER Prove it.
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Ethelred
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quote:
And As far as history goes, there is a jewish historian who talks about Jesus named Josepheus (possible sp), I'm not aware of any other contemporary historical records, aside from the new testament, |
Josephus has just one sentence that mentions Jesus.
James the brother of Jesus.
Thats it. So if you accept that you must also accept that Jesus had a brother and Mary wasn't a permanent virgin. Even that one reference was not contemporary. Josephus was born after the crucifiction.
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28-05-2002 12:56
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