28-05-2002 17:43									#1
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Okay, let me start by saying that in this particular game, I was cheating like crazy. It was only my second game at Deity level and I was in it for the experience to be gained. And let me tell you, it was an eye opener. Please bear with me for a moment.

Tiny world, playing as the Indians (the random draw for this game), with no space race victory, I found myself on one of two major continents with the Chinese. The Germans and English were on the other one. Early on, I began to attack the Chinese with swordsmen and was able to make a nice dent in their territory. But once I whittled them down to about four cities, every new city taken soon deposed me and went back to the Chinese.

Enter the cheating. I would reload the most recent autosaved game and withdraw all of my units from the city in question. Then when it deposed me, I had enough units adjacent to it to recapture it.

Here is the interesting thing about science. When I finally got them down to two cities left, it seemed like every other turn was either attack or depose. But in between, I reached a point where the Chinese would negotiate with me on every turn for a peace treaty. On top of that, they would always seem to have anywhere from three to four new scientific advancements which they were more than happy to give me. Incredible! I must have gained 10 advancements in three turns.

Don't get me wrong. I hate to reload saved games and replay to my advantage. I would never consider a game such as that a victory. I've even given up on this particular game. But the gains in science were astounding. I will be looking out for that in the future in non-cheat games.

	28-05-2002 18:42									#2
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Lemme get this straight:

Turn 1: Capture a city, withdraw, negotiate peace and extort techs.
Turn 2: Break treaty, repeat.
Ad infinitum.

If that's right, I would only do it following Arrian's guideline of destroying the respective civ before word gets out what a bastards you are.

	28-05-2002 18:44									#3
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What you described is the way i play; Crush your opponent untill he has a few cities left and then give him peace at the cost of all the techs I can get ( and a few cities if I am lucky ). But as I am a bit of a builder I dont declare war untill the peace treaty runs out (like to have my rep intact), or dont declare war at all and use my defeated neighbour as a vassal or a bufferzone.

When you say 'negotiate peace every turn' does that mean you attacked him right after each treaty, you naughty boy??

Havent played on deity though, just got my first emperor-win, but even there its impossible to keep up in research without trading or blackmail.

	28-05-2002 18:46									#4
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I guess there is something to be said about reputation, huh. This might not be a strategy for the ages. One thing that struck me, though, was how fast the Chinese acquired new technology. I wiped them clean each time only to find the cupboard thoroughly restocked the next turn.

And yes, I was a naughty boy. But all's fair in love and war, n'est-ce pas?

	28-05-2002 18:56									#5
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Re: their infinite supply of techs.
Not to state the obvious, but perhaps they were so far ahead of you, they already had the techs the first time? At the negotiation table, you can see only the first layer of technologies that you don't have. For example, if you don't know Mysticism and they know Monarchy, you will see Mysicism but not Polytheism. When you get Mysticism, you will see Polytheism but not Monarchy.

	28-05-2002 18:59									#6
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too true, kcbob. But I think they had the techs all along, its just that you cant see them on the negotiating table unless you have got the pre-requisit techs....

	28-05-2002 19:11									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus If that's right, I would only do it following Arrian's guideline of destroying the respective civ before word gets out what a bastards you are.

I do so all the time. If I am alone on an island with 1-2 other civs, and I'm sure no contact is possible till Navigation, I always follow Hitlers guideline: "Treaties exist only to be broken". I only make sure I finish them, before I (or anyone else) gets Navigation.

On topic: Alexman's explanation explains it entirely. You can't see more than one tech ahead in peace negotiations.

	28-05-2002 19:20									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Bingo. If a civ has alphabet, writing and literature, but you lack them all, you will only see alphabet in a peace negotiation. If you were to immediately talk to them again after getting alphabet from them, you would then see writing... and so on and so forth.

Reputation only matters if you wish to remain at peace with the other civs. I try to eliminate my poor, abused neighbors because though I intend to fight overseas, I intend to do so at a time of my choosing. I don't like surprise wars, and those tend to happen when the world hates your guts. I had a recent game (which I really should finish off) where one of the AI's missed making contact with the Indians (down to 1 island city that I was sailing to as fast as I could) because they chose to hug the coastline of the main continent. They were 2 turns of galley movement away from finding out that I was a homicidal maniac... but as it turned out they were more interested in founding a city on the one open tile on the southernmost tip of my continent. Heh, silly Egyptians. Now they won't know until it's too late...

-Arrian

	28-05-2002 20:14									#9
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Duh! I feel like such a newbie. It never occurred to me about prerequisite techs being the answer. I was just so amazed by the windfall of technology that I completely forgot my Basic Civ 101 knowledge.

	29-05-2002 16:50									#10
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Interestingly enough, all civs you have contact with will know of your reputation, even if they have had no contact with the civ that you have betrayed. You can start out on an island with, say, the English, wipe them out before they have contacted ANY other AI civ, and the other AI civs will ALL know about your betrayel of the English as soon as you contact them. This means that any treaty-breaking you do will forever taint your reputation with ALL the AI civs FOREVER!

	29-05-2002 16:53									#11
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LOL!!! Love your signature, Ijuin!!!

	29-05-2002 17:32									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Ijuin Interestingly enough, all civs you have contact with will know of your reputation, even if they have had no contact with the civ that you have betrayed. You can start out on an island with, say, the English, wipe them out before they have contacted ANY other AI civ, and the other AI civs will ALL know about your betrayel of the English as soon as you contact them. This means that any treaty-breaking you do will forever taint your reputation with ALL the AI civs FOREVER!

That's not what I see in my games. I remember one, where this was quite obvious:

I (Iroquois) had cleaned my continent of the puny Germans and Aztecs early. Treaties didn't matter, I got techs, gold and attacked again. And again. Both Aztecs and Germans hated the hell out of me, I finished them just not to see their faces anymore. That left me alone on the continent. I had a lot of dense built cities and an optimal placement of P/FP, so I made enough gold to outresearch the other AI's. Got Navigation first and sailed over to find another continent. If contained all other civs except one. They were nicely behind (3-4 techs). I sold techs for luxuries, but denied them Navigation.

Then I started to search the missing civ. Soon I found the Chinese on a continent of their own. It was nice, well shaped, rich of luxuries and resources, and it was fully developed by the industrious Chinese. I couldn't withstand, I had a strong desire to take it. Invaded with Cavalries, first 20, then more. Although I was ways ahead in tech, the war went long. Their Raiders were a PITA. They had many horse and iron resources, denial was not possible. I made peace multiple times and broke the treaties as soon as I had shipped over reinforcements.

Meanwhile, the other civs hadn't contact to China yet. I saw this in the diplo screens, the "Contact with the Chinese" option was still available. All civs were nice and polite, and eagerly traded with me. As soon as I could see, that they got Navigation, I doubled my effort on the Chinese continent and barely took them out, when I saw the first AI caravel approaching the 3rd continent.

Despite of my atrocities to the poor Aztecs, Germans and Chinese I saw no diplomatic penalty at all. I switched to builder, trader and scientist (2 continents were enough) and stayed the nice guy for the rest of the game. I had no problems with treaties and trade deals at all. I didn't finish the game though. I abandoned it as soon as I had reached the modern age. It wasn't a challenge anymore, I was ways ahead and could win at will.

	29-05-2002 18:40									#13
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Indeed. I always try to wipe out my neighbors before contact is made with the other continent. I failed to do that in my latest game... the AI was able to get across with a galley + Great Lighthouse while I was still trying to mop up. So the three civs "over there" know full well what a bloodthirsty madman I am. If, however, I had managed to finish the last two civs on my continent off before that American galley showed up, everything would have been peachy (as evidenced by the attitude of the overseas civs when I first made contact, before they sailed over and heard what the Japanese and Babylonians had to say about me.

-Arrian

	29-05-2002 22:39									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ijuin Interestingly enough, all civs you have contact with will know of your reputation, even if they have had no contact with the civ that you have betrayed. You can start out on an island with, say, the English, wipe them out before they have contacted ANY other AI civ, and the other AI civs will ALL know about your betrayel of the English as soon as you contact them. This means that any treaty-breaking you do will forever taint your reputation with ALL the AI civs FOREVER!

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph That's not what I see in my games. I remember one, where this was quite obvious: . . . .

Would love to know who is correct on this one. I generally play a builder style (or, more acurately, NYE's buildmonger style), and have often refrained from the more devilish tactics of breaking treaties shortly after peace, abusing RoP, etc. out of concern for my long-term reputation. If I was certain I could wipe someone out without a rep hit, I'd be more willing to be, as Arrian says, a bloodthirsty madman in the early game.

Anyone else confirm or deny the free reputation pass if you conquer a civ before third-party contact? (And Sir Ralph, do you turn the "respawn" option off when you play?)

Catt

	25-06-2002 03:31									#15
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Playing an all random game on Monarch. Looks like continents, max water. I (Persia) start on a landmass with Zulu and Babylon. Wipe out the Zulu. Babs, with an RoP and active trades, drops 4 bowman off right next to my capital (it was defended by one lowly spearman). Babs uses the RoP to move two bowman outside another city (also defended by one lowly spearman). Babs, abusing RoP, sneak attacks and takes my capital; next turn takes the second city. Fortunately, I was moving my huge immortal army into the chokepoint city that connects our empires, but was also able to move a small force towards my capital. I take back my cities and absolutely destroy Babs taking him down to one city -- but I really want The Republic from him; I confirm that he has no communications with other civs. I make peace, (taking everything he's got) with my armies outside his capital (last city). Next turn he demands I leave - I refuse, wipe him out. Hey - he broke important treaties with me first, didn't he? And in a most dastardly way

Babs had built the Great Lighthouse shortly before I captured it. I used it to discover the other continent. Meet 5 other civs -- they are all quite happy to trade gpt, RoP, etc.

This is the first time I've had a chance to test it, but it seems to me that freely breaking treaties, if followed by total destruction of a civ before external contact, does not affect reputation. I'm with Sir Ralph and Arrian on the viability of doing this without reputational cost.

Catt

	25-06-2002 04:18									#16
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I'm sold. The June Tournament game proved it to my satisfaction. Caesar went down with an "Et tu, Cleo?"

(sorry, nye)

I don't think I've ever had such good relations with later-met civs. At least, good relations until my little MA visits.

	25-06-2002 21:49									#17
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My experience was identical to that of Theseus.

Ijuin may be thinking of an example where he had no contact with any civs, but the civ he wiped out did.

	25-06-2002 23:43									#18
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Yeah the fact that the techs are layered in the diplo screen almost means you have to make and break treaties ad infinitum.

In my current game as the Germans, I'm still trying to master Sir Ralph's archer rush, I warred with the Everyone on my continent. Then made peace with each one and only extorted a few techs at a time. I was curious about racking up techs via peace negotiations but wasn't getting any results. Then I figured it out. The techs are layered in the diplo screen.

Solution: War with your neighbors multiple times to get ALL of their techs. My philosophy is "to the devil" with reputation. Just keep warring until you become supreme ruler 2002!