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TCO
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Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
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Sorry about the abscence. I'm such a wimp amongst you sharks. But, ok...I will jump back in the ocean! I know UR has been already answering this at an expert level. I'm not going to look at his stuff and just take a shot on my own.
Thinking defense, I have 4 dependable tricks: 2sp, h, c**
**Q of c pretty likely to make.
I need to get one or two more. either another h trick or 2, from p. So I need to play hearts suit correctly.
If partner has kxxx, than I'm set to get 2 h tricks, no matter what. And in fact, can make 3 tricks by ducking the first round and than playing A and leading over to p. Ducking also might have the advantage of removing an entry from dummy.
If p has qxxx, than I can make 2 tricks by playing my ace and than returning h twice. If I were to duck that round, I would only get 1 h trick.
So it seems that I should take the trick with the ace of h
Now, stepping back and looking at the hand from declarer perspective.
He's got something like:
him dummy
sp Jxxxx Ax
h Hxx J9x
d AKxx J9
c A KJ7xxx
where H is the k or q. I'll assume that he has to have at least one club, the ace. Or we are home free. One or 2 of the diamonds might be clubs.
So he's got 5 quick tricks in aces and kings.
one of the hearts is certain to make. So that's 6.
If he's got the 10 of diamonds, than he's got a third diamond (and fourth!) trick since the finnesse will work. If he lacks the 10, meaning p has it, than he can still get 3 tricks from the suit, if he has the 7. If p has 107xx, than decl can only make 2 tricks in the suit. (So that's 6-8)
Since def spades are 3-3 (he doesn't know this of course, but they are, and percentages would argue for an even split) He should be able to make at least 3 sp, maybe 4. (that's 2 more there, bringing him up to 8-12....ARRGH...this is getting silly.)
As far as clubs go, def are divided 4-2, (he doesn't know that of course). With my q8 above his j7, it looks like he has to let me have at least 2 clubs before he would be able to cash the last 2 small clubs.
(this gives him 10-14...lol...you can see that this kind of analysis is a bit beyond me...and why I avoided the thread...)
Let's look at it in terms of losers, from decl point of view:
-He's got 1-2 losers in sp to develop that suit.
-He's got 2 losers in clubs to develop that suit (he doesn't know that, but he does). Actually if he's got the 10 or 9 in his hand...and a 3 card or shorter diamond suit, than he's only got 1 cl loser. Of course, that would mean he's not gonna score much in diamonds...(3 max)
-He's got at least 2 losers in h.
-He's got 0-2 losers in d
-He's got 2 losers in clubs to develop that suit (he doesn't know that, but he does). Actually if he's got the 10 or 9 in his hand...and a 3 card or shorter diamond suit, than he's only got 1 cl loser. Of course, that would mean he's not gonna score much in diamonds...(3 max)
Let's look at transport from hand to hand.
From himself to dummy he can use sp to get over. And (if he has less than 4 d, he can use a club to get over.)
From dummy to himself, he's got a club cross-over and he's got a diamond cross-over. All in all not so great considering he needs to take losers in both sp and clubs to develop them.
So, I guess I'll play my ace of hearts. Then what? Not a club return cause that is a free finness. (if opp has Ax). Not a sp return cause that gives him one of my honors, provided he plays the j from his hand. H return doesn't seem so crappy, although there is a chanc of giving him an entry to dummy in the form of the J of h...doesn't seem like such a danger, if p leads back a h immediately, before opp has started developing clubs. Other choice would be to lead back a diamond. This gives him a free finnesse even if p had had 107xx. So I guess, I will just return a small heart.
Sorry that this is so long. I really did my best. Not yet really adroit at cutting to the key issues in a bridge analysis...so I just rambled through it. 
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TCO
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Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Okay, I forget about that. Now, seeing that North's 2C bid shows real clubs - at least a 5 card suit - rebid it a second time seems to promise a 6-card suit.[/i] |
It IS A 6 CARD SUIT! (italics added...I'm assuming second rebid = 3rd bid.)
quote:
He should respond with 2S instead, the bid perfectly describes his hand. His first denial of support for spades shows that he has less than a 3-card suit in spades, |
I wasn't aware that you were required to support back with a 3 card sp suit in either 4cm or 5cm. In the 5cm system in particular, you are looking for 4-4 matches, and partner might have as weak a hand as xxxx in sp. Granted in either system, you might show support with Hxx. Probably slightly more likely to do that in the 4cm system, where you can count on p suit being at least a decen suit...not xxxx.
quote:
so the 2S says he has a 2-card suit with an honour, plus a 5-card club suit. South then can leave the contract in 2S, which is better than 3NT. |
1. HE HAS 6 c, NOT 5! 
2. showing support with Ax pretty bad idea. Very decent chance that p has only 4 sp. Which means 2s could be worse than 3c. No way to know he has 5. And with 5, p likely to jump to 4 sp...in this case, I bet he does, thinking that you have 3.
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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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D'oh! Brain-fart.
You're right, North does have a 6-card club suit. As to South's distribution, em, you're right too. Still, he can't have 5 diamonds and no clubs, because that will leave him with a hole in the clubs with no leads into his partner's hand, which is very bad. He is unlikely to have 3 clubs either, otherwise he'd be looking at 6-3 in clubs, which is good for a minor contract. So I peg him with either one or two clubs: 5-3-3-2 or 5-3-4-1.
As for opening bids, I much prefer scaling back on the required HCP intead of adding in distro points. Say 12 or even 11 to open. I feel that paints the picture a lot more clearer. If my partner shows opening strength and I have 17 HCP, that puts us at a min. of 29 HCP. I'd smell an ironclad game contract with a possible slam. Even if partner shows up short we can still settle for a game - as long as he didn't lie to me that little weasel
You also do need a 3-card suit when supporting a 5-card major bid.
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TCO
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Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
As to South's distribution, em, you're right too. |
heee heee. Hard to play with only 12!
quote:
Still, he can't have 5 diamonds and no clubs, because that will leave him with a hole in the clubs with no leads into his partner's hand, which is very bad. |
Agreed. He would have had 13 hcp (max) and 3 dist points. A rebid of 3d likely in that case. Which opener passes of course.
quote:
He is unlikely to have 3 clubs either, otherwise he'd be looking at 6-3 in clubs, which is good for a minor contract. |
Very good point. Plus in that case he's got a doubleton in diamonds and is likely to get a ruff there. So would probably bid 5 clubs. right on.
quote:
As for opening bids, I much prefer scaling back on the required HCP intead of adding in distro points. Say 12 or even 11 to open. I feel that paints the picture a lot more clearer. |
Clearer for NT bidding. But won't you miss some suit games? In any case, Sten said they are playing either standard American or prehistoric. Both of those allow counting the distribution in. That said...I still think opener was too weak to open even with distribution.
quote:
If my partner shows opening strength and I have 17 HCP, that puts us at a min. of 29 HCP. |
17 plus 11 = 28.
quote:
I'd smell an ironclad game contract with a possible slam. Even if partner shows up short we can still settle for a game - as long as he didn't lie to me that little weasel |
Agreed, with 17 hcp game is iced. But as long as you bid new suit forcing, you can push into game. What slam overture, do you want to make. The jump shift is ok if you are 5341 which gives you 19 total. if you have only 18, what action would you take? (Lie?) Or do something else. Not sure...just asking.
quote:
You also do need a 3-card suit when supporting a 5-card major bid. |
I mean are you REQUIRED to show a 3 card sp suit, vice rebidding your clubs at the 2c level? (If you had 3 sp..which you don't...but you said that the 2c bid denies a 3sp holding.) I thought the whole point of 5cm was to look for 4-4 major fits. Sure you COULD give him a raise with 3 spades, but if you are REQUIRED to...and p is REQUIRED to show a suit as weak as xxxx, that doesn't make sense. Even in the prehistoric system (where the 1sp bid would promise more strength or length) you would probably bid 2c rather than show a 3sp suit.
Next...if opener says 2sp over 2d, responder is likely to go to 4sp in that case. I really don't like the idea of supporting spades with Ax. Would only do it if partner had jumped from 1sp to 3sp.
Oh I like your use of smilies.
Last edited by TCO on 03-06-2002 at 08:01
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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by GP
Clearer for NT bidding. But won't you miss some suit games? In any case, Sten said they are playing either standard American or prehistoric. |
Unlikely. Most contracts are made either by distribution, HCP, or a combination of both. If you have the distribution but not the points, you can go for a weak 2 opening. Actually, this hand with a 6-card club suit and 10HCP is typical hand for a weak 2 opening. As long as you side understands 2D refers to a 6-card (or more) minor suit plus a weak hand (not enough HCP to open), that's fine.
quote:
Originally posted by GP
Both of those allow counting the distribution in. That said...I still think opener was too weak to open even with
distribution. |
Yeah, these are just mostly guidelines that are not set in stone. If you have a 6-6-1-0 hand with 10 HCP, will you open? I definitely will.
quote:
Originally posted by GP
Agreed, with 17 hcp game is iced. But as long as you bid new suit forcing, you can push into game. What slam overture, do you want to make. The jump shift is ok if you are 5341 which gives you 19 total. if you have only 18, what action would you take? (Lie?) Or do something else. Not sure...just asking. |
I reckon forcing one round is fine. You don't want your partner to pass because of bum support in your suit at any rate. Once you do that the decision wrt to the contract is more or less in your hands.
quote:
Originally posted by GP
I mean are you REQUIRED to show a 3 card sp suit, vice rebidding your clubs at the 2c level? (If you had 3 sp..which you don't...but you said that the 2c bid denies a 3sp holding.) |
Yes, at least that's the way we played. Minimum is something like Jxx.
quote:
Originally posted by GP
I thought the whole point of 5cm was to look for 4-4 major fits. |
4-4 major fits aren't that hot since there are 5 outside trump cards and a 4-1 split is going to be bad - a 4-1 split isn't all that rare. The whole thing about suit contracts is you need to retain control in the trump suit. If you lose control, you're in deep pile. A 5-3 fit means the opponents need to have a 5-0 split to match your long hand. A 5-0 split is very rare.
quote:
Originally posted by GP
Sure you COULD give him a raise with 3 spades, but if you are REQUIRED to...and p is REQUIRED to show a suit as weak as xxxx, that doesn't make sense. |
xxxx is good support if you have a 5-card suit in your hand. Again, what you want is control, and length gives you control, not strength. Hypothetically, even if you have nothing higher than a 10, a 3-1 split means the defender will win 3 tricks in the trump suit.
quote:
Originally posted by GP
Next...if opener says 2sp over 2d, responder is likely to go to 4sp in that case. I really don't like the idea of supporting spades with Ax. Would only do it if partner had jumped from 1sp to 3sp. |
You mean something like 1C-2D-2S-4S? I don't see that happening, but that's still probably going to be better than 3NT. I think the bidding would be better if it went something like 1C-1S-2C-2D-3S. The first club rebid confirms a real club suit with no spade support - otherwise a major contract is preferred. So the 3S bid means North (opener) has xxx or Ax or Kx pretty much. Seeing a misfiting hand, South can choose to take the 3S partial contract.
P.S. I am not an expert. I used to play just for fun, and to foul up little old ladies who were oh so dead serious  
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Rex Little
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The reason for preferring 4-4 trump suit to a 5-3 is that if the 5-3 suit is on the side, you can get discards on it. A 4-4 fit doesn't necessarily lose control to a 4-1 split; whichever hand you ruff in, the other one still has 4 cards.
6-2 is better than 5-3 (should you be so lucky as to get that choice) because you have a near-certainty of keeping trump control, while still getting discards on the side suit. (It's very rare that more than 2 discards are needed, or even useful.) Not sure why 6-2 is preferred over 4-4.
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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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GP,
" OK...if you bring in the evil weak 2, I guess your overall system makes sense. I will stick to learning more standard stuff first."
Evil? Weak 2 is now pretty much part of the SA (Standard American), as you aren't required to make an alert when bidding in a tournament.
"In standard American or in prehistoric you are not required to show support with Hxx. It is your judgement. You can rebid your own suit (esp if 6 long.) Thus you have not denied a 3 card sp suit. With 4 deep, there would be a bit more of an impetus to show it of course."
Okay, you are not really required to show support, as a matter of fact you are never required to show support no matter how strong the suit is. Do realise though a game in one of the majors is preferred to a game in one of the minors, so it makes sense to support your partner's major with say Jxx even though you have a 5-card minor. Now if you have a 6-card minor that'd be something of a toss-up. Even though no trump contracts are even better, most modern bidding systems are now designed around seeking contracts in the major suits. SA has also been more or less updated to reflect this.
"The issue wrt 5cm is that responder is pushed to bid a major even with xxxx in response to the 1 minor opening. Therefore it makes even less sense in that case, to put a requirement on opener to show major support with Hxx."
Again, there is no requirement per se, but you are strongly recommended to do so. As for how to respond to a "better minor bid," this again hinges on the understanding between you and your partner. For example, minors to deny a 5cm with uneven distribution and a preference to play in the minor named, NT's to deny a 5cm with even distribution, and majors to show 5cm. It's up to you how the details fit together.
"Opener would interpret this as delayed support. and would likely go to 4sp, since he has 5sp and opening points."
That's why it is important to iron out the minor details before hand to avoid confusions and misunderstandings. SA is just a framework that you need to flesh out with your partner. At any rate, I would interpret the 2c bid as denial of support, so this can't be delayed support. YMMV.
"Ax or Kx not particularly useful. Better to have the xxx length and the A or K elsewhere."
Yes, the idea though is to give your partner a choice. After you showed your clubs and spades, it's his decision of what contract to play. He could prefer a 5-2 spade contract over a club contract.
"Remember opener only has reason to beleive that p has a non-rebiddable sp suit. So any support shown would be taken in that context by responder. Since he actually has a bit more than xxxx in sp, he is likley to push on from a 3s bid."
The responder is most unlikely to respond spades with xxxx to a better minor. The key here is do you have to have a 5-card suit to repond in a major.
Rex Little,
"The reason for preferring 4-4 trump suit to a 5-3 is that if the 5-3 suit is on the side, you can get discards on it. A 4-4 fit doesn't necessarily lose control to a 4-1 split; whichever hand you ruff in, the other one still has 4 cards."
With a 5-3 split in trumps you can ruff in the short hand, which is the ideal way of generating extra tricks. Better still, a ruff-and-slough, killing two birds with one stone. A 4-4 fit does not necessarily lost control to a 4-1 split, but the defender can attempt to force you to ruff, thus shortening your trump suit.
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TCO
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Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
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Goren has spoken! You must be an "average declarerer" UR.
Also, the problem is that often the 3 suit doesn't contain a short suit for ruffing. Also, realize that with 4-4, you can take a ruff in either hand.
Last edited by TCO on 05-06-2002 at 02:39
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Bird
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South Orange, New Jersey
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by GP
Darn it Bird...get in here. What? Are you...working? |
Hehe, sorry, that has indeed been the case. There's a lot here to respond to, so I'll work on it from the beginning.
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Bird
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South Orange, New Jersey
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by GP
Sorry about the abscence. I'm such a wimp amongst you sharks. But, ok...I will jump back in the ocean! I know UR has been already answering this at an expert level. I'm not going to look at his stuff and just take a shot on my own.
Thinking defense, I have 4 dependable tricks: 2sp, h, c**
**Q of c pretty likely to make.
I need to get one or two more. either another h trick or 2, from p. So I need to play hearts suit correctly.
If partner has kxxx, than I'm set to get 2 h tricks, no matter what. And in fact, can make 3 tricks by ducking the first round and than playing A and leading over to p. Ducking also might have the advantage of removing an entry from dummy.
If p has qxxx, than I can make 2 tricks by playing my ace and than returning h twice. If I were to duck that round, I would only get 1 h trick.
So it seems that I should take the trick with the ace of h
Now, stepping back and looking at the hand from declarer perspective.
He's got something like:
him dummy
sp Jxxxx Ax
h Hxx J9x
d AKxx J9
c A KJ7xxx
where H is the k or q. I'll assume that he has to have at least one club, the ace. Or we are home free. One or 2 of the diamonds might be clubs.
So he's got 5 quick tricks in aces and kings.
one of the hearts is certain to make. So that's 6.
If he's got the 10 of diamonds, than he's got a third diamond (and fourth!) trick since the finnesse will work. If he lacks the 10, meaning p has it, than he can still get 3 tricks from the suit, if he has the 7. If p has 107xx, than decl can only make 2 tricks in the suit. (So that's 6-8)
Since def spades are 3-3 (he doesn't know this of course, but they are, and percentages would argue for an even split) He should be able to make at least 3 sp, maybe 4. (that's 2 more there, bringing him up to 8-12....ARRGH...this is getting silly.)
As far as clubs go, def are divided 4-2, (he doesn't know that of course). With my q8 above his j7, it looks like he has to let me have at least 2 clubs before he would be able to cash the last 2 small clubs.
(this gives him 10-14...lol...you can see that this kind of analysis is a bit beyond me...and why I avoided the thread...)
Let's look at it in terms of losers, from decl point of view:
-He's got 1-2 losers in sp to develop that suit.
-He's got 2 losers in clubs to develop that suit (he doesn't know that, but he does). Actually if he's got the 10 or 9 in his hand...and a 3 card or shorter diamond suit, than he's only got 1 cl loser. Of course, that would mean he's not gonna score much in diamonds...(3 max)
-He's got at least 2 losers in h.
-He's got 0-2 losers in d
-He's got 2 losers in clubs to develop that suit (he doesn't know that, but he does). Actually if he's got the 10 or 9 in his hand...and a 3 card or shorter diamond suit, than he's only got 1 cl loser. Of course, that would mean he's not gonna score much in diamonds...(3 max)
Let's look at transport from hand to hand.
From himself to dummy he can use sp to get over. And (if he has less than 4 d, he can use a club to get over.)
From dummy to himself, he's got a club cross-over and he's got a diamond cross-over. All in all not so great considering he needs to take losers in both sp and clubs to develop them.
So, I guess I'll play my ace of hearts. Then what? Not a club return cause that is a free finness. (if opp has Ax). Not a sp return cause that gives him one of my honors, provided he plays the j from his hand. H return doesn't seem so crappy, although there is a chanc of giving him an entry to dummy in the form of the J of h...doesn't seem like such a danger, if p leads back a h immediately, before opp has started developing clubs. Other choice would be to lead back a diamond. This gives him a free finnesse even if p had had 107xx. So I guess, I will just return a small heart.
Sorry that this is so long. I really did my best. Not yet really adroit at cutting to the key issues in a bridge analysis...so I just rambled through it. |
I don't think there's a wrong thought in there. Very good.
Now, some of the hands you've envisioned really don't leave declarer with much hope regardless of what you do, so the key is to focus on the hands where your defense will matter. A club return, like UR suggests, will work on many layouts, but I would return a heart because I really don't want to lead into the KJxxxx if declarer has Ax. Not that he will be able to set the clubs up (he won't), but it could give him 3 tricks in that suit. Plus, I fully expect that returning a heart will set up another trick for the defense in that suit.
This hand, which GP envisions, is worrisome for the defense, not necessarily b/c of quick tricks for declarer, but rather for the possibility of an end play:
him dummy
sp Jxxxx Ax
h Hxx J9x
d AKxx J9
c A KJ7xxx
It will not be a problem if the heart honor is the queen, b/c partner will duck the heart return and cash two hearts, giving us three tricks in that suit, when you get in. So assume declarer's heart is the king.
More later. Gotta go for now.
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31-05-2002 14:15
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