29-05-2002 06:57									#1
	Bridge players game arranging thread Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Like the title says...this is for anyone wanting to set up a game. I have played with Rex Little and with Jon Miller a few times already.

	29-05-2002 07:33									#2
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Sounds interesting, but maybe we should post the system and conventions we use beforehand.

	29-05-2002 08:55									#3
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Isn't Bridge for little old ladies over tea?



I would, but I totally suck at bridge and would be an easy target/piss poor partner. But have fun.

	29-05-2002 11:05									#4
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UR,

Good idea.
Basic system: My preference is to play Goren. I prefer the 4 card majors, but so many people play 5cm, that I can live with that no problem.

Conventions: Stay, Gerber, Blackwood. (Can omit any or all...of course).

Level of play: I'm not an expert. I'm a little better than the average player on pogo. But I don't know squeeze plays, etc.

	30-05-2002 00:22									#5
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Defensive quiz.

You are East and you and your partner will pass throughout. North opens and the auction goes as follows:

1C-1S
2C-2D
3C-3N

Playing standard (4th best) leads, your partner leads the 3 of Hearts. Dummy hits with the following:

S: Ax
H: J9x
D: J9
C: KJ7xxx

Your hand is:

S: KQx
H: A84
D: Q8x
C: Q8xx


This will be a developing quiz. First things first. What do you know about declarer's hand, assuming the opponents are playing something close to Standard American?

	30-05-2002 02:26									#6
	GP...still kicking himself for not knowing bird was near NJO... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ola!

hmmm...developing answer. I'm not disciplined enough to think this way when playing but I'll give it a shot.

1. You know that opp has 13+ hcp because of how he bid up inot game over North's minimum responses.

2. Since you have 13 hcp and dummy has 10, declarer max points is 40-23 = 17 hcp. If your partner has at least one honor in hearts (K or Q, implied by the 4th best lead) than declarer has 14 or 15 hcp.

3. From the cards on table, there are 8 sp, 7 h, 8 d and 3 c to divide among partner and declarer.

4. From the bidding, opp has at least 4 sp and 4 d (he bid those suits.) He has less than 4 h. And a max of 3c. My best guess: something like 4-3-4-2 (sp-h-d-c). There's probably further I could go here...but I'm not sure.

5. from the point count, opp has almost all the non-showing honors. Partner can't have more than 4 points. And probably just has the Q or K of hearts.

So maybe somthing like this:

sp Jxxx
h K (or Q)xx
d AKxx
c Ax

Last edited by TCO on 30-05-2002 at 02:32

	30-05-2002 02:34									#7
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umm...one thing I'm not sure of: opp did NOT bid nt until last resort. This would seem to argue against the balanced hand which I showed.

	30-05-2002 04:41									#8
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That's pretty damn good for someone who just learned the game. I know people who've played for years and still don't think that way.

1. Right. Aggressive opponents might show up with 12 HCP, but in that case, unless declarer has all three missing clubs or has distorted the bidding in a big way, there is no way in hell he can make the contract.

2. This is mostly right also. The "mostly" is partly a matter of partnership style. Partner might have led from 10xxx, in which case he probably has a diamond honor, or perhaps the Ace of clubs. (There's no law against leading low from Kxx or Qxx, but on this auction I think that's unlikely.) All in all, it's not unreasonable to think that partner has an honor somewhere because declarer didn't make a slam try.

3. Right, moving on to .......

4. Assuming Standard American (5 card majors) and even Prehistoric (Goren) methods, you can refine this even further, and your second post is on target in that regard. Partner is indeed marked with 4 hearts, leaving declarer with 3. So why did declarer bid diamonds?

5. We've already agreed with this (see no. 2).

More to follow after you answer the question in number 4.

	30-05-2002 05:45									#9
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This is going to be a Socratic dialog. (I.e. you are going to have to pull teeth to get me to think it all through!)

I still use "Standard American" to describe (my) prehistoric style since that is what G calls it in the 1973 edition that I have of his. But I agree that everybody uses it to mean 5cm.

I'm a little unclear regarding the 4th best comment. Am I supposed to take that as an extra given? In a real game, he might lead even just from xxx, no? I mean he's got a pretty crappy hand. And that is the unbid suit. So why not lead to me in the hopes that, that suit is the one we need to develop? Scratch that thought. If he was xxx, he would have led from the top. So...he's either 10xxx, Kxxx, or Qxxx. (My natural instinct was to place him with one of the honors...cause I think we need to have that to defeat the contract...but I haven't really thought that part through.) In any case, if I assume opp are playing 4 card majors, that means opp doesn't have a 4 c heart suti cause he nver showed it.

Point taken on "why would he bid diamonds". With the balanced hand I showed, he would go right to nt rather than show that 4c d suit. So the hand must be more unbalanced. I guess we need to move some club(s) and/or h into the diamond suit. You could move a heart over to clubs, leaving him with Qx? Would that unbalance the hand enough to let him bid diamonds rather than nt? Since it is new suti forcing. just don't know here.

He never rebid the sp so they are definintely 4 deep.

I gues another arrangement might be

4sp
2h
5d
2c

Or should it be even more unbalenced?

4sp
2h
6d
1c?

not sure if he wouldn't rebid the diamonds than..

	30-05-2002 05:48									#10
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Given that partner led the 3 of h, that puts him with max 5 h. So opp must have at least 2h.

That's the only other thing I could figure out.

	30-05-2002 06:07									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Bird That's pretty damn good for someone who just learned the game. I know people who've played for years and still don't think that way.

Like I said, I don't really think this way during play. Probably should...and hope to some day. But not how I think yet...especially under time pressure.

	30-05-2002 08:15									#12
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First of all, I was sloppy with the hand layout. I meant to make dummy J92 of hearts so it was clear the heart 3 was not from a 5 card suit. That would clarify that the heart lead was not from a 5 card suit (unless partner is trying to be deceptive, which makes little sense given his bust), thus my earlier comments about leading from Qxx or Kxx. Mea culpa.

Your thoughts are right given the lack of clarity. And I agree that with partner's obviously crappy hand he might very well lead xxx in an unbid suit to try to reach my strength, but in that case he would probably lead the top or middle card, certainly not the lowest card. So you're on target there too.

For purposes of this exercise, assume the opponents are playing 5 card majors. Most people in the states do (although I don't with my regular partners) and it's important to understand the inferences from their auctions. In this case, however, I doubt the auction would have been different regardless of system.

With that understanding, what inferences can you draw from declarer's diamond bid? You are absolutely correct that declarer has some sort of "shape", and now you know he has 3 hearts.

	30-05-2002 09:39									#13
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Ok...I'll try again.

4sp based on not rebidding sp*
3h as discussed

that leaves 6 diamonds and clubs. I guess he could have been bidding the diamond suit cause it was an actual interesting suit. Or he could have been trying to keep the bidding going based on his point count even with a short diamond suit. I guess my best guess is: 5 diamonds and 1 club.

If don't know if you can squeeze much more out of this "dummy", Bird. You're welcome to keep giving hints though. I like the post count! (Hope Ming doesn't see here...)


*Of course since you didn't give me a "roger" on that, like you did for the other points, that may be a false reasoning. hmmmm...

	30-05-2002 11:47									#14
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Looks like the declarer will have problems cashing the long club suits in the dummy, so the defense should be to stop that from happening.


GP,

Declarer shouldn't have 6D, and unlikely to have 5D. Clearly they have a suit mismatch here, and declarer didn't rebid diamonds. If declarer had a 5-card suit in diamonds, he should rebid it (unless it's something like xxxxx), then North would have stopped at 3D, which is a much better contract if South had 5 or even 6 diamonds.


Bird,

Why did North bid clubs 3 times with 10 points? I don't see why he opened on 1 either. A much better bid would be to pass. He didn't have what it takes to bid 3C, and 2C is artifical strong bid most of the time.

	30-05-2002 17:01									#15
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Ok, I think the right concepts have filtered through the analyses. UR is right that declarer should not have longer diamonds than spades, and on this auction he probably does not have 5 diamonds. GP -- whether playing 4 or 5 card majors, neither opener nor responder should feel obliged to automatically rebid a 5 card suit. Here, for example, if declarer has 5-3-4-1 shape, he certainly shouldn't rebid spades if for no other reason than it's a crappy five card suit.

There are two schools of thought on responding. One approach is to describe your shape by bidding up the line regardless of strength. In other words, if partner opens 1C, bid 1D any time you have 4 diamonds and no major with greater length. The other approach is to bypass the diamond suit and bid the major first whenever you don't have game forcing values. There are implications of the latter approach that can be discussed another day. In this case, b/c declarer obviously had game forcing values, I don't believe it is likely he would bypass a 5 card diamond suit to bid a 4 card (crappy) spade suit. (As an aside, IMO the most important reason to accurately bid your shape when you have game forcing values is that it makes slam bidding much easier.)

In "modern" standard bidding, a new minor suit (like the 2D bid here) is 100% forcing and does not necessarily promise diamonds. Responder would, for example, probably bid 2D with 5-3-3-2, 5-4-2-2, or 5-3-4-1 (plus others not relevant here). This allows the partnership to find their 5-3 spade fit or even a 4-4 heart fit in cases where responder might want to bid a non-forcing 2H with 5-4 shape in the majors. Playing 4 card majors, the 2D bid is also forcing, but denies 4 hearts. Taking into account the comments above, plus GP's on-target observations about the delayed NT bid, it is extremely likely declarer has 5 spades. (He won't have 6 b/c he would have bid differently.) Best guess, then, is that he's 5-3 in the majors.

Now think about the likely minor suit distribution. Could declarer have 2 diamonds and 3 clubs? Possibly, but then partner has 6 diamonds and might have led one, plus declarer might have opted to raise clubs rather than bid NT (no guarantees here, of course). I'd be inclined to expect declarer to have at least 3 diamonds, and maybe 4. If he has 3 diamonds, partner has 5 and the lead then suggests that partner must have a heart honor b/c with a worthless 5 card diamond suit and a worthless 4 card heart suit, partner has no reason not to lead a diamond on this auction. In this auction, partner certainly should not lead from a worthless 4 card heart suit if he has 5 diamonds to an honor.

UR: it is indeed a very borderline opening hand, but it's a brave new world out there and people are very aggressive nowadays. Most people would not open the hand, but for those that do, I think the bidding is right. Opener just keeps sending "slow down" messages by rebidding clubs. Obviously, if you're going to open these kinds of hands, your partner needs to take that possibility into account when bidding.

Ok, enough about the bidding. How do we beat this hand? Partner leads the 3 of Hearts and declarer plays the 9 from dummy. Things certainly look promising for your side. You're up.

Edit: let's simplify this a little. Assume partner isn't torturing you by leading from 10xxx and that he therefore has a heart honor.

Last edited by Bird on 30-05-2002 at 17:15

	30-05-2002 23:07									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Bird, Why did North bid clubs 3 times with 10 points? I don't see why he opened on 1 either. A much better bid would be to pass. He didn't have what it takes to bid 3C, and 2C is artifical strong bid most of the time.

1. New suit forcing. His partner could have up to 18 points. His club rebids are minimum bids. don't show any extra value

2. Agreed that the opener is a bit of a stretch. 12 points with distribution. But you can cut that to 11 if you downgrade the J of D. His club opening is minimal and has a convenient rebid...but agreed. I would pass on that hand.

	30-05-2002 23:18									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Declarer shouldn't have 6D, and unlikely to have 5D. Clearly they have a suit mismatch here, and declarer didn't rebid diamonds. If declarer had a 5-card suit in diamonds, he should rebid it (unless it's something like xxxxx), then North would have stopped at 3D, which is a much better contract if South had 5 or even 6 diamonds.

Even with 17 points? But since Bird said the bidding makes sense in 4cm, that should have been enough to tell me that he wasn't 5 deep in diamonds (unless he were 5-5 in diamonds and spades). hmmm.....

	30-05-2002 23:25									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Bird Ok, I think the right concepts have filtered through the analyses. UR is right that declarer should not have longer diamonds than spades, and on this auction he probably does not have 5 diamonds. GP -- whether playing 4 or 5 card majors, neither opener nor responder should feel obliged to automatically rebid a 5 card suit. Here, for example, if declarer has 5-3-4-1 shape, he certainly shouldn't rebid spades if for no other reason than it's a crappy five card suit. There are two schools of thought on responding. One approach is to describe your shape by bidding up the line regardless of strength. In other words, if partner opens 1C, bid 1D any time you have 4 diamonds and no major with greater length. The other approach is to bypass the diamond suit and bid the major first whenever you don't have game forcing values. There are implications of the latter approach that can be discussed another day. In this case, b/c declarer obviously had game forcing values, I don't believe it is likely he would bypass a 5 card diamond suit to bid a 4 card (crappy) spade suit. (As an aside, IMO the most important reason to accurately bid your shape when you have game forcing values is that it makes slam bidding much easier.) In "modern" standard bidding, a new minor suit (like the 2D bid here) is 100% forcing and does not necessarily promise diamonds. Responder would, for example, probably bid 2D with 5-3-3-2, 5-4-2-2, or 5-3-4-1 (plus others not relevant here). This allows the partnership to find their 5-3 spade fit or even a 4-4 heart fit in cases where responder might want to bid a non-forcing 2H with 5-4 shape in the majors. Playing 4 card majors, the 2D bid is also forcing, but denies 4 hearts. Taking into account the comments above, plus GP's on-target observations about the delayed NT bid, it is extremely likely declarer has 5 spades. (He won't have 6 b/c he would have bid differently.) Best guess, then, is that he's 5-3 in the majors. Now think about the likely minor suit distribution. Could declarer have 2 diamonds and 3 clubs? Possibly, but then partner has 6 diamonds and might have led one, plus declarer might have opted to raise clubs rather than bid NT (no guarantees here, of course). I'd be inclined to expect declarer to have at least 3 diamonds, and maybe 4. If he has 3 diamonds, partner has 5 and the lead then suggests that partner must have a heart honor b/c with a worthless 5 card diamond suit and a worthless 4 card heart suit, partner has no reason not to lead a diamond on this auction. In this auction, partner certainly should not lead from a worthless 4 card heart suit if he has 5 diamonds to an honor. UR: it is indeed a very borderline opening hand, but it's a brave new world out there and people are very aggressive nowadays. Most people would not open the hand, but for those that do, I think the bidding is right. Opener just keeps sending "slow down" messages by rebidding clubs. Obviously, if you're going to open these kinds of hands, your partner needs to take that possibility into account when bidding. Ok, enough about the bidding. How do we beat this hand? Partner leads the 3 of Hearts and declarer plays the 9 from dummy. Things certainly look promising for your side. You're up. Edit: let's simplify this a little. Assume partner isn't torturing you by leading from 10xxx and that he therefore has a heart honor.

I should have listened to you more when you said that his bids made sense in 4cm. My understanding of 5cm is a little flawed when it comes to subtleties.

Could you expand on why he wouldn't just sump to 3nt after the 2 club bid? I mean what is he fishing for with the 2d bid? Hoping partner will return to spades? In which case he goes to 4?

	31-05-2002 00:21									#19
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quote: Originally posted by GP Could you expand on why he wouldn't just sump to 3nt after the 2 club bid? I mean what is he fishing for with the 2d bid? Hoping partner will return to spades? In which case he goes to 4?

He is indeed fishing with the 2D bid, basically asking opener to further describe his hand. Among other things, he may be hoping he can catch partner with 3 spades, in which case opener will certainly now support that suit. But, playing 4 card majors, he might also be catering to the possibility that opener has something along the lines of 1-2-4-6 distribution and minimum values. In that case, 5D might be the only makeable game.

Playing 5 card majors, he could be looking for any of the foregoing, plus also possibly a 4 card heart suit from opener (1-4-2-6 or 1-4-3-5 distribution, for example).

	31-05-2002 00:23									#20
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I don't think he would be loking for a 4 card h suit, since h only has 3. Right?

	31-05-2002 00:33									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Bird But, playing 4 card majors, he might also be catering to the possibility that opener has something along the lines of 1-2-4-6 distribution and minimum values. In that case, 5D might be the only makeable game.

But in that case, his own diamond suit must be real. I.e. at least 4 deep.

On a side note (general issue): I agree that partner might bid a new suit as a conveneince bid, since he know it's forcing, but I will tend to read them as "real bids". So partner better be sure that I don't misinterpret his bids. I don't think it would happen in this case*...but in others I could see problems. (i.e opener jumps to game of a minor)

*Since opener has already showed a minimum opener hand...and responder is basically in charge now.

	31-05-2002 00:36									#22
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quote: Originally posted by GP I don't think he would be loking for a 4 card h suit, since h only has 3. Right?

Well, you didn't know that until the bidding was over and partner led his suit. My comments were directed at that kind of bid in general. In this case, we know he wasn't looking for a heart fit, which helps us focus on the other possibilities.

	31-05-2002 00:41									#23
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quote: Originally posted by GP But in that case, his own diamond suit must be real. I.e. at least 4 deep. On a side note (general issue): I agree that partner might bid a new suit as a conveneince bid, since he know it's forcing, but I will tend to read them as "real bids". So partner better be sure that I don't misinterpret his bids. I don't think it would happen in this case*...but in others I could see problems. (i.e opener jumps to game of a minor) *Since opener has already showed a minimum opener hand...and responder is basically in charge now.

Yes, playing 4 card majors, the bid should be real (generally). Here, however, the bidding is not 4 card majors, which means the bid isn't necessarily real. In this case, however, the rest of the bidding and opening lead give you lots of clues about the minor suit distribution. See my earlier comments in the longer post. The upshot is that declarer in all likelihood has at least 3 if not 4 diamonds.

	31-05-2002 00:54									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Bird Yes, playing 4 card majors, the bid should be real (generally). Here, however, the bidding is not 4 card majors, which means the bid isn't necessarily real. In this case, however, the rest of the bidding and opening lead give you lots of clues about the minor suit distribution. See my earlier comments in the longer post. The upshot is that declarer in all likelihood has at least 3 if not 4 diamonds.

I'm not trying to be vexing. Just trying to disect it all.

FYI: I wasn't aware that 5cm said that higher minor bids were false. I know that the "best minor" OPENING may be 3 short. I could see someone using a false new suit bid in EITHER system to "keep the bidding going". Just when one does so, one needs to be careful. In this case, it would work fine since partner is unlikely to jump to 5d after showing such a weak 2c bid.

	31-05-2002 01:05									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Bird Well, you didn't know that until the bidding was over and partner led his suit. My comments were directed at that kind of bid in general. In this case, we know he wasn't looking for a heart fit, which helps us focus on the other possibilities.

Just trying to think it through. If I just accept something that I don't understand, it won't help me learn.

After bidding and dummy lawdown, we know:

1.declarer has an unbalanced hand (from the 2d bid).

2a.he either has a real diamond suit (based on the 2d bid)

2.b or he has a 5 sp suit (based on the 2d bid)

From 2a and b, he must be:
5332
5323
5341
5350

or

4343 ---> too balanced. can't be this one.
4352 ---> would have bid 1d can't be this one

So he must have 5 spades!!! gotta be.

Probably he's 5341 or 5350. Wouldn't you think that with 5332 or 5323, he would have bid 3nt rather than 2d?

hmmm...more slow thinking. With the crappy sp suit, would he have bid the diamonds suit first or the spades, if they are both 5 high? If that's true than he must be 5341. But, bidding the sp first has the benefit of being more economical and of looking for a major suit fit first. UR points out that with 5 diamonds he would have settled for 3d rather than go to game. I think this is true, if he has 13-15 points. If he has as much as 17, than he could have gone to 3nt* even with the hole in clubs. But to have any chance of defeating the contract, I've gotta figure decl doesn't have 17 points (partner has soemthing) so that argues for 5341.

My money bet: 5341.

* not a perfect contract but opener would pass 3 or 4d and with 17 points he would want a shot at game.


Oops!!! scratch that thought. he can't have 17 points if he is void in clubs since partner would have the A of clubs. So UR is right, he would have settled for 3d.


So it MUST be 5341 (you can tell me if 5332 or 5323 are balanced enough to have prompted him to bid 3nt rather than 2d)

	31-05-2002 01:14									#26
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dp

Last edited by TCO on 31-05-2002 at 01:32

	31-05-2002 03:08									#27
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quote: So he must have 5 spades!!! gotta be.

Yep, I'd say so.

quote: Probably he's 5341 or 5350. Wouldn't you think that with 5332 or 5323, he would have bid 3nt rather than 2d?

I already talked about the minor suit distribution inferences, but answering these questions anyway: 5341 is a definite possibility. With 5350, it's a tough call -- some people would rebid diamonds with the thought of perhaps getting to 5D, but I wouldn't blame anyone for bidding 3NT with, say, a 15 count opposite a partner who bid clubs clubs and clubs again. He wouldn't necessarily bid 3NT with 5332 or 5323 shape (he might look for a 5-3 spade fit, among other reasons -- see my earlier comments).

quote: So it MUST be 5341 (you can tell me if 5332 or 5323 are balanced enough to have prompted him to bid 3nt rather than 2d)

See previous comments.


Anyway, enough about the bidding, start defending. Partner led the H3, declarer put in the 9 from J92. Your move. (And, like I already said, things don't look so bad for the good guys.)

	31-05-2002 05:53									#28
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Ok...I'll start thinking through the defense. I still want to shoot more bullets into the unmoving horse corpse of the bidding. (Not so much for this problem but to help me think a littl more strategically when I play...and maybe understand my p bids and bid better myself too.)

But I'll defend first. You're getting tired of the bidding discussion.

More to follow...

	31-05-2002 13:42									#29
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quote: Originally posted by GP 1. New suit forcing. His partner could have up to 18 points. His club rebids are minimum bids. don't show any extra value

Okay, I forget about that. Now, seeing that North's 2C bid shows real clubs - at least a 5 card suit - rebid it a second time seems to promise a 6-card suit. He should respond with 2S instead, the bid perfectly describes his hand. His first denial of support for spades shows that he has less than a 3-card suit in spades, so the 2S says he has a 2-card suit with an honour, plus a 5-card club suit. South then can leave the contract in 2S, which is better than 3NT.

quote: Originally posted by GP 2. Agreed that the opener is a bit of a stretch. 12 points with distribution. But you can cut that to 11 if you downgrade the J of D. His club opening is minimal and has a convenient rebid...but agreed. I would pass on that hand.

Hm. I tend not to count distribution points when I open. They're worthless in NT contracts like this

	31-05-2002 13:47									#30
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quote: Originally posted by GP Even with 17 points? But since Bird said the bidding makes sense in 4cm, that should have been enough to tell me that he wasn't 5 deep in diamonds (unless he were 5-5 in diamonds and spades). hmmm.....

South is very unlikely to have 17 points. What would you do if you have 17 HCP and your partner opened, promising 12HCP (at least 11)? I'd be fishing for a slam right there.

I'd say his bidding was weak considering he has at least 14 points. He should be responded with 2S, showing strength over a minium response.