29-05-2002 11:52									#1
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I attacked the hoplite with my immortal. The battle should have gone on perfectly. I knocked off one hp with no problem. Then another. Then I got hit. Then I hit him again. He hits me three times in a row (!) and then I had a dead immortal. No problem, I can finish off that almost dead hoplite with my other immortals. Um, right after I finish off the 4 healthy ones ready to guard the injured one! And on the next turn, the injured hoplite was at 100% again. I learned 2 good lessons from that experience.

#1- Don't mess with Greece
#2- If I used an army, I could have killed that hoplite without having to go through the others protecting it. This is 1 of the 2 uses I have seen for armies. In reverse, an army defending isn't dead until it is totally destroyed. Where you would normally lose a musketman or two, an army can cut your losses because of the extra hps.

Producing an army can be a shield place holder when you plan to immediately get that wonder when it's first available. The high cost of armies has helped me many times this way!

And... Thats it. I can't find any other uses for armies besides this. Oh well, I wish they could be more useful...

	29-05-2002 13:34									#2
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You can mess with Greece in the ancient age, if you are Persia or the Iroquois. Other civs should wait for knights. Make sure that you attack only with completely healthy and veteran units. Bring enough of them, and Alex is toast.

On the use of armies, I recommend you the lecture of this thread;

	29-05-2002 13:46									#3
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Picked an early fight with the greeks the other day. My roman legionaires did not have any trouble at all killing of those Hoplites.

It's all between the ears, any civ who sees my centurions coming their way, gets fortfied of fear!

(Or maybe it's just my luck)

	29-05-2002 14:14									#4
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I attacked a hoplite with an army of legionaires.
Hoplites - 1
Army - 0

It wasn't even a large city (was below size 6) and didn't have city walls. Although I'm sure it was the "one in a thousand" chance that it died, I haven't used an army since.

	29-05-2002 14:30									#5
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Well, I rushed Greek cities with War Chariots. It worked, but I was aware, that my losses would be significant.

The key is, attack with 100% healthy veterans. The Greeks aren't militaristic and usually don't build early barracks, so you face regulars. Be aware, you need an average of about 3 WC's/Horsemen for each Hoplite. Since the AI has mostly 2 defenders (except very early) and will poprush a third if in trouble, and there's often also an archer or warrior in the city, anything below 10 units would be too risky. Take in account, that you always face only the strongest unit. So it could happen, that you injure all 3 hoplites and the archer to 1hp, and since they are regulars, they are at 3hp's again the next turns, since cities without barracks heal 2hp's per turn. Even worse: The archer surely counterattacks, and will certainly take out one of your remaining healthy WC's (since the healthy ones go for defense).

	29-05-2002 16:31									#6
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Yah? I once had a game with the Aztecs, where due to geography, I absolutely had to kill Greece in the Ancient Age if I wanted to have any chance of survival later on. Obviously, only my Veteran Swordsmen did anything good, Archers were only for picking up Warrios in the field .

	29-05-2002 23:28									#7
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quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin I attacked the hoplite with my immortal.

lol- dude, don't mess with hoplites

	30-05-2002 04:29									#8
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In my Roman games, I routinely pick on the greeks with my legions.

The key seems to be persistance. After all... Hoplites can only be promoted to Elite once .

I find it both effective to keep a constant attack... and no matter the cost, it is important to keep a foothold in Greek territory. They seem to just collapse defensively if you can keep troups constantly at their gates... and if you can resist their first and second counter attacks. Seem to run out of resources, and can't rebuild the hoplites too well.

	30-05-2002 10:39									#9
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A border city will have 2 or 3 hoplites. The capitol can have 5+ in some games. A hoplite costs less than a legion or swordsman, but can (usually) kill 2 before it dies. Cities above size 6 give 50% defence, I think. Of course, smaller cities can have walls. Combined with fortification, they are just too hard to kill. It's easy to outnumber them when you are twice their size. But you will usually lose to the Greeks if they are equal to you in power. I wouldn't bother wasting resources on an army here, a military alliance is what you need.

Armies can concentrate on 1 unit, and have a hp bonus. Thats good. But it isn't worth spending the production of a small wonder to get them!

	30-05-2002 11:49									#10
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An army will probably take a hoplite, but an army could also die against a hoplite. I don't think it's worth the risk.

I agree with Sir Ralph that enough WCs can overwhelm a Greek city... but you'll need a lot of WCs to take more than a couple of cities. It's not worth the effort. If at all possible, let them go until chivalry or even cavalry.

	30-05-2002 12:22									#11
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Yes VOC and Ninot, you have found the glory of Mars.

The game I kept track of, each Greek city went like this:
Elite Legion attacks regular Hoplite, Legion dies. Elite Legion attacks regular Hoplite, Hoplite dies. Veteran Legion attacks wounded Hoplite, Hoplite dies. Most of the time there was an Archer as the third unit, or none at all and the city was added to the glory of Rome. 9 of 10 cities went that way. All the same. First elite Legion died. All the rest won.

Hoplites? Wait for Knights? Have Legions, will travel.

	30-05-2002 13:53									#12
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yes VOC and Ninot, you have found the glory of Mars. All the same. First elite Legion died. All the rest won. Hoplites? Wait for Knights? Have Legions, will travel.

Yes, this sounds kinda familiar to me. When you're gonna take it up against those hoplites you know what you gonna get.

The unit I absolutely detest are the spearman, somehow, someway, they just scare me with their demonic 1/2/1 from hell. I never know what I'm up for with those little rascals.

I Personaly feel like a big bad mofo when I have a couple of spearman guarding my floorishing empire. Bring it on you evil evil barabarian uprisings1

	30-05-2002 18:47									#13
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Armies can be useful, but I lost a fully rested 3-Rider army to a wounded (2hp) pikeman last night. Yeah, the pike was in a size 9 city.

I prefer the flexibility of using multiple units. In the case of hoplites... well, waiting for knights is the smart play most of the time, but if you really need to take them out early, then bring horsemen. Soften the hoplites with the horsies, finish with your immortals.

-Arrian

	30-05-2002 19:37									#14
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Question/update: 2 games into 1.21f now, and still no great leaders. Now, I never play militaristic civs, and usually I'm a builder, but I'm usually at war with someone, somewhere, expanding my borders bit by bit. Have they reduced the chance for leaders in 1.21f or have I just had really bad luck?

[I heard that if you use the random seed option, you get maps without luxuries... have I done something that has resulted in no leaders? All I've edited are a few units' ADM values, and double hit points across the board... ]

Incidentally, using the Greeks for the second game, and hoplites definitely rock. They just make me feel so warm & fuzzy & secure... though, I must say that I avoided actually USING the hoplites until the middle ages. Stupid? No, it gave me my golden age at exactly the right time, just when I was ready to shoot ahead to #1... I like this game

	30-05-2002 20:55									#15
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Milo,

I just finished a 121 game in which I got 7 leaders. Of course, I was playing a militaristic civ, and I did a lot of fighting.

-Arrian

	31-05-2002 08:18									#16
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Hoplite is 1/3 normally, but...

After 25% fortification bonus and behind 50% city walls bonus (or just size 7+ city), a hoplite becomes 1/5.25

It's a legion's 3 attack versus a hoplite's 5.25 defence. It usually amounts to a dead legion, or even an immortal. Factor in the hoplite's cheaper cost and you will see how powerful this unit is. On top of that, the hoplite doesn't need iron like the swordsman type units. A fortified hoplite in a 13+ city is as tougher than a rifleman in the open

If you are winning half the time against hoplites, you are lucky.

	31-05-2002 09:12									#17
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King: Ahhh, but that "warmy&fuzzy&secure" feeling that MiloMilo refers to leads to chronic underbuilding of defensive forces. Yum yum yum, gonna eat me some Hoplites.

Back OT: I continue to be impressed by Armies... including, btw, the elegance of the design. Over the last couple days I've been playing a Bab game (bizarro world response to the whole Industrious discussion); created a 1-Bowman Army waaay early, nailed a 1-hp Spearman for the HE, and saved the Army for later. It's currently 14-hp, Bowman - Swordsman - Longbowman... and the powerhouse in the game. I call it "General Maximus." I will later add an Infantry, and call it "Audie Murphy." Think of that augmented Army as uber-Infantry... remember the mechanism: each attack or defense event starts with the strongest unit.

I dream about my Armies.

	31-05-2002 09:26									#18
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quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin Hoplite is 1/3 normally, but... After 25% fortification bonus and behind 50% city walls bonus (or just size 7+ city), a hoplite becomes 1/5.25 It's a legion's 3 attack versus a hoplite's 5.25 defence. It usually amounts to a dead legion, or even an immortal. Factor in the hoplite's cheaper cost and you will see how powerful this unit is. On top of that, the hoplite doesn't need iron like the swordsman type units. A fortified hoplite in a 13+ city is as tougher than a rifleman in the open If you are winning half the time against hoplites, you are lucky.

you must also take into account that!
1)You will probably use Veteran Legions, Greece will use regulars

2)They usually don't build city wall early, and don't have many 7+ cities, since they probably have just finished the "land grab" phase

Anyway my usual tactic is:
1)attack with a horseman (75% he retreat before dyeing)
2)attack with another horseman
3)finish the wounde hoplite with a legion
4)finish the second wounded hoplite with a legion
5)kill the archer or the warrior with a third legion or horseman
6)move to next city

I almost always do like that Greece is so predictable, that's why is, afterall, not that hard to crush

Saluti

	31-05-2002 15:46									#19
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Well, beating on the AI isn't very outstanding. A human player really could use hoplites very well. It takes a while for a barracks to finish for non militaristic civs, and you can bet that some hoplites will be promoted from killing barbarians. The whole concept of armies just doesn't work. Why would you make an army of 2 longbowmen and 1 musketman if you could send them as individual units? Really, the sharing hps doesn't matter since longbowmen are so weak defensively anyway.

If anything, I would send an army only to focus an attack on a single unit, but would have separate defensive units to defend the army. I never liked the idea of mixed armies. After defeating the musketman defender, the 2 longbowmen will die. If the units are separate, then the AI needs 3 attacks to kill them all, not 1. In some cases, an army is just a bunched up group of units easier for the AI to kill. If armies are going to be used, they should be totally offensive or totally defensive.

	31-05-2002 17:13									#20
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King, you are missing the most meaningful aspect of Armies.

In each individual encounter, the strongest unit, whether on offense or defense, starts. Repeatedly.

So let's say you have an all-vet 2X Longbow and 1X Musket Army:

On attack, it's functionally a 4 attack strength unit with 8 usable hps... fairly formidable, I'd say.

On defense, it's a 4 defense unit... again and again, for potentially 11 hps. Each time it's attacked, the Musketman comes to the fore.

In my recent Egyptian epic, I had two Armies of Infantry, Musket, Longbow and Sword... invaluable defenders.

	31-05-2002 17:40									#21
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Um... Not in my experiences. An army of 1 mech infantry and 2 warriors isn't as good as an army of 3 mech infantry, ok? The defending unit doesn't just "absorb" the hps of the other units. After being reduced to 1 hp, the musketman retreats and the longbowmen jump in. The defence of the army is reduced to 1 because the musketman can no longer fight.

However, an army of 3 mech infantry can take 11 damage before being destroyed. Thats +2 hps, basically. Not worth it, in my opinion...

	31-05-2002 18:39									#22
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Sorry, not explaining well.

Yes, of course, 3 strong individual defenders beat 1 in an Army backed up by 2 weak defense offenders.

Not the point... I'm saying that on succesive battles, the strong defender is repeatedly the first to fight. This is true even if in, say, the first battle, the strong defender uses all its hps, and the remaining units have enough hps, even if weak, to survive. In the next battle, the strong defender starts again, using whatever total hps are left.

The same is true on offense... add a Tank to a Cav Army, and, when blitzing, the Tank always strikes the first blow.

BTW, using your example, 3 vet MIs can take 11 hps damage, and 1 will survive with 1 hp. That sort of sucks. A 3 vet MI Army can take the same punishment, and survive in entirety, heal at a faster rate than the 1, and over time the units will almost certainly be promoted to elite.

Try it Mikey, you'll like it.

	31-05-2002 19:07									#23
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Wrong again. 3 veteran mech infantry have a total of 12 hps. After 11 damage is distributed to them, 2 die and 1 has a single hp.

If an army of 3 mech infantry takes 11 damage, there is only 1 hp left but all 3 are alive. See what I'm saying? Overall, it's a +2 hp benefit. Still not enough to justify the use of armies.

Yes, your example shows that, if the longbowmen win, the musketman will be fresh in the next fight. However, odds are those longbowmen are dead the minute that musketman falls. A lot of it depends on your luck. And if you are lucky enough to get an army, I guess you are ok. I still find a wonder to be better, though. Boring, true, but better.

	31-05-2002 19:28									#24
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But those +2hp are the difference between being dead or alive!!

I get enough GLs that there isn't always a GW or SW to build, so I build Armies. I even stockpile them.

To each his own.

	31-05-2002 20:50									#25
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Update Arrian: I got a leader! Yay! Finally my Greek armies will swarm over the vile Aztecs in their dirty jungles and take their pretty rubber, useful for so many things (units, I mean)!

Theseus, For the longest time I shared Rasslin's doubt as to the effectiveness of your mixed-use armies. Now I understand however. I'll have to try that.

	31-05-2002 21:23									#26
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Another approach would be to bring in lots of Catapults and bombard the crap out them, before you attack with your regular troops. It's a bit tedious, since Catapults are hopelessly inaccurate, but eventually you'll whittle them down.

I sure hope we get the auto-bombard in the next patch! Between group move and auto-bombard, Catapults/Cannon will become very valuable units.

PS Provided of course auto-bombard actually means what I think it does.

	01-06-2002 05:07									#27
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If you thinbk the game is tedious with CATAPULTS bombarding wait till you get to artillery!!

The lack of auto-bombard (all artillery in a tile hitting the same target) is very needed, and the same goes for auto-bombard for naval units.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Firaxis to change this.