02-06-2002 13:16									#1
	A Bug? What happened to the "Per Turn" Tributes? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Let me say that I had a hell of a run at Civ 3 last fall. Yes, it was buggy, yes, I was annoyed. But it was fun.

One of the things I liked about the game was that when you beat a rival civ down, to say, 30% of their original size, they usually cower in fear, and will throw themselves at your mercy. This included giving generously in a peace treaty (like say 30 gold per turn). With Civs doing this, that is, willing to pay you lot of gold per turn to stay in peace, and giving you the opportunity to be Tony Soprano after 20 turns and demand more or you'll break their legs, the geopolitical landscape was interesting. For the first time in Civ game, there were true "vassal states", extensions of your empire. A cheap way of earning gold without dealing with the corruption you'll otherwise deal wtih by conquering them.

Well, half a year later, I'm back, and after downloading the new patch and booting up a game, I was generally pleased with the fixes. Then, I went to war. Crushed Persia, marched on their capital, broke their backs, and when they messaged me for peace, I was surprised they were NOT WILLING to consider any peace terms with a "Per Turn" arrangement. I even set it as low as 1 gold per turn, which would mean 20 golds in 20 turn, and they still turned it down. But they willingly gave up the 151 gold in their treasury. This made no sense. Before the bug fix (I don't believe there was this problem in the first patch), the AI didn't have this problem. It could actually figure out 1 gold PER TURN tribute = 20 gold LUMP SUM and didn't mind paying either or. Although you can usually swindle them out of more by playing around and throwing different demands at them using "LUMP SUM" or "PER TURN" and there would be the odd occasion where they'd be willing to give you more gold in the long run than in a lump sum.

Perhaps Soren and Co. felt it was being exploited and toughened up the AI, but It was a great disappointment for me to see that I'm no longer able to demand per turn tributes and have my "vassal states".

P.S. I went to war with Aztecs as well and when I beat them down and they asked for peace, same result happened. They refused my "PER TURN" gold demands, even when I set it down to 1 gold PER TURN, but willingly gave me a lump sum worth a lot more than 20 gold.

PPS Also, I don't think this is an issue with the AI not being able to afford forking out the money on a per turn basis. Both Persia and the Aztecs had 8 cities (persia) 12 - 15 cities (Aztecs). They were beaten badly,but not obliterated and had large cities that could produce the gold to pay me. The Aztecs in my game last year had something like 7 or 8 cities and paid me 30 or 40 gold PER TURN in our third peace treaty.

Note: I know of the bug that lets you demand 999999999999 or some ridiculous amount of gold in LUMP SUM. But I want that bug fixed, and it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about

Last edited by dexters on 02-06-2002 at 13:29

	02-06-2002 13:18									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Yes - I came across that too. It is bizarre. Very difficult to get the AI to trade gold/turn. Same with cities

	02-06-2002 21:32									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Originally the AI was allowed to make deals they sometimes couldn't afford even if they gave you every coin they got per turn with no science and no entertainment. Which was clearly a bug since they could give you money they didn't have.

Now the AI (and you for that matter) can only use the money going to the treasury at the time of the negotiation for any per turn deals. This means that if the AI is stocking up on cash or has just ended a long cash agreement with someone they have more to spend on perturn deals. But if the AI has all its money allocated to science and trade allready they can't give you any on a per turn basis.

	02-06-2002 21:53									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hmm. I see what you're saying. But if they are being beaten, you'd assume that the AI would be willing to cut back on research and increase taxes or do whatever to give a reasonable offer for what is essentially surrender.

I understand this is more an emotional/ego issue for the human player, but I miss the days when the AI could grovel properly

	02-06-2002 22:16									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by dexters Hmm. I see what you're saying. But if they are being beaten, you'd assume that the AI would be willing to cut back on research and increase taxes or do whatever to give a reasonable offer for what is essentially surrender. I understand this is more an emotional/ego issue for the human player, but I miss the days when the AI could grovel properly

Well they can't cut back on those things. Its matter of the way the game is structured. When they are negotiating they can't rebalance their spending. You can because you can access the Domestic Iritant by double-clicking on the Foreign Advisor head.

Not being a warmonger but a builder-opportunist I don't miss what I didn't do. I would commiserate with you but frankly its too easy for the warmongers as it is. The name of game is Civilization III not:

Run Rampant

The Horse Barbarian Conquest and the Destruction of Civilization

Hey that sounds like a good game. I want royalties from anyone that wants to use the name.

	02-06-2002 22:20									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Have a look at this thread and then tell me the AI doesn't pay per turn...

	02-06-2002 23:36									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I saw that thread Lucilla, that's a lot of bling bling

Anyways Ethelred, I did not mean to imply I am an all out warmonger. I don't see much ultility in conquering a continent for myself with corruption still a major isse, or destroying civilizations (it is less interesting when you're the lone superpower). I will admit I do lean on wars as a source of expansion, but total annihialation of the opponent and constant wars is not something I seek.

That said, I was merely commenting on the wonderful, and likely unintended side effect of having civilizations who have been dealt a heavy blow to become vassals of an empire by sending large tributes to the the Imperial capital. I would classify this as a diplomatic solution, whereby a more powerful civilization subjugate its weaker neighbours and keep them in line without resorting to conquest.

	03-06-2002 10:29									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I am playing a game right now with the latest patch at regent level where I have one civ paying me 76 gpt and another paying 48 gpt. And I am only at the industrius age.

	07-06-2002 00:16									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

Keep in mind that if you've razed their cities, and sent their people into servitude, building your roads etc. they're going to be less likely to make a deal with you. Soren seems to have beefed up the whole cultural memory thing the past couple of patches, so the civs you conquer will remember their previous dealings with you more.

As well, they're generally not as likely to deal with you as they once were. Even in trade deals/tech sharing they've become tougher to make bargains with. It was to easy to exploit them before, so they're no longer as gullible now.