02-06-2002 13:52									#1
	Defensive unit rush Suffering from ads?

never, Never, NEVER EVER should a regular spearman defeat 3 veteran horsemen. The regular spearman was unfortified in a plains square. My first horseman only did 1 damage. The second horseman also did 1, but the spearman was promoted. The third one didn't hurt him at all, and the spearman was promoted again. Being desparate, I sent in 3 of my veteran spearmen offensively, hoping that they could do just 1 damage each. They didn't even dent that stupid spearmen. I lost 3 horsemen, 3 spearmen, and an undefended new border city to that single, stupid spearman. Then the English sent in 4 more against me.

Try attacking with a lot of spearmen before the AI can trap them with other defensive units. Send the spearmen in to pillage all of his roads. This will ruin his economy and happiness if you can also kill some luxuries.

The problem with this game is that defensive units are very, very, very powerful. It isn't an issue if they are used the way they were designed to be used, but they can be used improperly very successfully. I didn't have problems with a lot of infantry. My cities had huge culture levels by then, so I could see them coming for a while. I could trap them and kill them with bombarding them constantly.

That isn't the issue with the spearman or the pikeman. These 2 units are very, very cheap in cost and in power. It's unusual that you can leave offensive units at your cities (like knights or cavalry) and defend reasonably well, and send defensive units (spearmen, pikemen, infantry) to the front and succeed.

I hate people that rant about something they can change. But I can't change bogus results like 1 spearman in the open killing 3 veteran horsemen and 3 veteran spearmen. To add insult to injury, the computer sent in 4 more spearmen, in an offensive manner. It was crushing because I had such huge borders, I couldn't cover them all.

I quit that stupid game. Can you reduce an enemies speed in pillaging the land? As it is, a spearman (or worse, hoplite) attack is too difficult to stop. Just wait until multiplayer.

	02-06-2002 14:51									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

In my last game on Monarch I started with 4 Civs on a relatively small continent. One of them killed all the others but me. By giving them tribute they left me alone in my corner of the continent for a long time. Then they decided to invade me with ~100 Infantry. I was not able to stop that!

	02-06-2002 14:55									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I just killed a civ with the defence rush using hoplites. Sure, it got me very behind the others, but thats the same thing the AI did to me! They can afford to sacrifice a civ or 2. It's almost like me versus the world

I was stuck between Persia, Russia, and England. It got unfriendly very quickly. I was so dumb for putting 2 units in each of my cities. I should have put most of the spearmen at the border to guard and just crank the luxury bar to 20% instead. At least spearmen are weak on the offence.

Infantry are so powerful, I don't make any other unit when they are available. Attacking another civ becomes impossible at that point to the end of the game. It's game over unless you get lucky early on.

	02-06-2002 15:04									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well Artillery can still be used in the lategame... But you are right: It cannot be compared with how you could do successful Attacks in the early game.

	02-06-2002 18:39									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Get ready for MP.

	02-06-2002 21:52									#6
	Re: Defensive unit rush Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin never, Never, NEVER EVER should a regular spearman defeat 3 veteran horsemen. The regular spearman was unfortified in a plains square. My first horseman only did 1 damage. The second horseman also did 1, but the spearman was promoted. The third one didn't hurt him at all, and the spearman was promoted again. Being desparate, I sent in 3 of my veteran spearmen offensively, hoping that they could do just 1 damage each. They didn't even dent that stupid spearmen. I lost 3 horsemen, 3 spearmen, and an undefended new border city to that single, stupid spearman. Then the English sent in 4 more against me. Try attacking with a lot of spearmen before the AI can trap them with other defensive units. Send the spearmen in to pillage all of his roads. This will ruin his economy and happiness if you can also kill some luxuries. The problem with this game is that defensive units are very, very, very powerful. It isn't an issue if they are used the way they were designed to be used, but they can be used improperly very successfully. I didn't have problems with a lot of infantry. My cities had huge culture levels by then, so I could see them coming for a while. I could trap them and kill them with bombarding them constantly. That isn't the issue with the spearman or the pikeman. These 2 units are very, very cheap in cost and in power. It's unusual that you can leave offensive units at your cities (like knights or cavalry) and defend reasonably well, and send defensive units (spearmen, pikemen, infantry) to the front and succeed. I hate people that rant about something they can change. But I can't change bogus results like 1 spearman in the open killing 3 veteran horsemen and 3 veteran spearmen. To add insult to injury, the computer sent in 4 more spearmen, in an offensive manner. It was crushing because I had such huge borders, I couldn't cover them all. I quit that stupid game. Can you reduce an enemies speed in pillaging the land? As it is, a spearman (or worse, hoplite) attack is too difficult to stop. Just wait until multiplayer.

My biggest beef is how promotion works. Sometimes the defender has 1 hp, you attack 3 times, losing each time and then it gets promoted once or twice making it stronger than before you attacked it! that is bs!! HP should stay constant throughout promotion.

	02-06-2002 22:33									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree, the hp bonus in promotion is too much. I have taken the offensive defence way too far now. With the Zulu impi raising (and razing) h3ll on anyone I don't like. It actually does long term damage. They can't use their workers, and they lose almost all of their trade. I bet they can't even make barracks or temples because they can't make maintenence payments.

	03-06-2002 00:59									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I've invaded with infantry before, but never spearmen, I feel like taking out some persians now!!!

	03-06-2002 01:28									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin I just killed a civ with the defence rush using hoplites. Sure, it got me very behind the others, but thats the same thing the AI did to me! Infantry are so powerful, I don't make any other unit when they are available. Attacking another civ becomes impossible at that point to the end of the game. It's game over unless you get lucky early on.

I don't get that. Infantry only rule until tanks show up. Even with infantry, cavalry are v. useful. Defensive artillary works well to weaken invading infantry, then cavalry can usually finish them off, or the ai sends them back home. Offensive artillary or bombers is a necessity in the early portions of an invasion, otherwise, yes your losses are severe post-infantry.

The major problem with the defence rush is that it takes forever to work and then you've wasted 500 or more years in the BC just to weaken another civ.

--mm

	03-06-2002 02:11									#10
	Support Apolyton

actually, I just tried it with the greeks, and it got me the roman empire before AD

	03-06-2002 02:44									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't that basically how warfare has always worked? Spear and pike formed large parts of most armies of their respective times and functioned both in defensive and offensive roles, until the musket and bayonet began to replace the pike, and were in turn eventually phased out in favor of rifles and later on, automatic weapons. At all points, the core upon which armies, offensive ones (those being most of them) were built was the infantry. Those examples of leadership successfully using powerful, mobile shock troops--the Mongol riders, Napoleanic cavalry, the German blitz--are shining exceptions and built to some extent on myth; that Napolean's cavalry arm proved so decisive is a matter of application, not inherent power in cavalry and most certainly not due to sheer strength of numbers, and the Germans never would have defeated France in WWII without their infantry. Yet Civ3 offers relatively little penalty for fighting wars using nothing but huge stacks of cavalry and tanks.

	03-06-2002 04:59									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Metaliturtle actually, I just tried it with the greeks, and it got me the roman empire before AD

I'm not saying it doesn't work (maybe I did say that ) but my main point is, it takes forever, and you would be better served sending in something with a higher attack value. The defence rush may be more aptly named the "defence crawl" and in my experience, the larger the enemy, the less time-cost-effective it is. YMMV.

OTOH, the romans are very well suited to this strategy since thier best offence is also their best defence, ie, legionary and then all you have to decide is which squares to pillage and which not.

I stand by my assessment of the infantry/tank/artillary/cavalry paradigm, although, as Random Passerby pointed out, that may not be historically consistent. If CivIII were accurate, WWII would have lasted 20-50 years, and the brits would be mad at the americans for ceasing hostilities with Japan.

--mm