02-06-2002 22:28									#1
	Orthodox opening, Babylonian (culture) variation. Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hi there,
Since some other players use chess names for their strategies, I thought I would do the same. This strategy is for playing on Emperor with roaming barbs and absolutely random settings. Standard map size. I play every starting position therefore I know that my strategy works. Sometimes things are difficult but there are ways to play.

This strategy works best with the Babylonians. You need cheap temples and libraries very much. I tried other races but no one is as good as they. Aside from the fact that you get a free tech in every era and you have no anarchy when you change goverments, the cheap and therefore early temples/libraries will make you the absolute cultural leader.

I call it orthodox because at the beggining you play normally building warrior, warrior till you are ready for your first settler. Then you build temple. In your new cities you build temples first, then barracks etc. Also, you research alphabet/writing and you aim at literature; the sooner the better. Then you build libraries. The idea is to have superior culture. If you look at the culture screen (F5) some thousand years later you will get an idea of the owesome culture value of early temples (and libraries).

There are some things that you can do with a superior culture that would be impossible otherwise. Suppose there is a luxury on the borderline. Unfortunately someone else got there first. Don't worry, build a settler and found a city one tile away. Usually luxuries exist on several adjacent tiles therefore you will find a way to put the city in such a way that you will control some of them. Even one will do. Build a temple a.s.a.p. and then a library and there are good chances that the enemy town will defect. In any case case your town won't defect and you will have the "luxury".

Another thing you can do when you have a superior culture; when at war you have the luxury of keeping every city you capture. You don't have to raze it as you would otherwise. This is of great benefit.

One problem is that for some time you will be very weak militarily. This is simple mathematics, you built temples/libraries where others have built military units. During this period it is important to avoid war at all costs. I know that some people get pissed off with the AI demanding tribute etc. I on the other hand am quite glad when they ask me to give them something, because the way it's programmed when you give tribute you get another 20 turns of peace with that particular civilization. I even go so far as to give them tribute without asking. The worst thing that can happen to you is a surprise attack. So, don't be completely unprepared. Build some barracks at least and some military units.

Now- Important- If you somehow manage to build more than 12 good cities you don't need to go to war. Twelve cities are enough to win a space race victory on a standard map. Plus you will win a couple of cities by your superior culture. Just keep building cities one tile away from enemy ones and some of them will surely defect.

If on the other hand you have no space for more than say 5-6 then you have to start building temporary cities. Temporary cities are the ones you make with no intention of keeping once the war is over. You just build a barracks and possibly a temple and then you use then for building (rushbuilding) military units.

When you will start the war depends on many things, what is the enemy's special unit, how many units you need to be considered ready, technologies you need to build the units you want to and of course what kind of resourses you and the enemy have. I played a game as the Persians where I had neither iron nor horses. Needless to say I didn't attack. I played peacefully throughout the game till the discovery of tanks. I got no less than 5 cities from the Zulu though, by my superior culture.

When you actually start the war one very simple thing you can do is to buy an ally. Usually you will be on a continent with more than one other civ. Ask some other comp. player to attack your enemy. If they ask for money, give them.

Another simple thing is to have settlers ready. Sometimes your ally will raze cities. Be ready to fill the space with a city of your own. I once had the Persians and the Zulu fighting each other and razing cities while I was building cities on the now free land.

Use defensive units on the battlefield. Form a wall with spearmen or pikemen and the AI will try to go around your units. In other words you can lead the opponent's troops where you want by using defensive units. In some situations you can completely encircle an enemy stack with defensive units. Ideally you can encircle a stack of cavalry/infantry with your own infantries. It can be done with pikemen against horsemen, impies and even knights. The knight's attack is better than the pikeman's defense of course but, first your pikemen will be fortified and second the pikemen are a lot cheaper. Ok, this can be done in certain situations only. Just have it in mind.

The future of the game depends very much on the outcome of the war. I have to say here that I don't like this very much... Anyway, if you win a major victory and you manage to get space enough for 20 cities, then the game is over. You will play builder from then on and you will surely win the space race. Don't forget the Theory of evolution wonder Also, the trick of selling technologies to the second best civilization. In my last game I completed the spaceship while all others haven't built a single spaceship part yet.

	02-06-2002 23:29									#2
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Alkis, you give me the strangest feeling. I finished a game with the Babs last night which was like a carbon copy of this plan. After the "war period" I was left alone on a 12 city island, with another two cities on a small island (couldn't resist). The other AI was a long way accross the ocean, so I didn't get any flipping to me, but built the space ship just before my culture got too high in the capital. (Somehow managed to get all the wonders apart from Hanging Gardens)

Babs rock !

-Jam

	03-06-2002 01:23									#3
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You got all wonders except HG??? On Emperor??

Please tell me how you did that? You build a city then you start a wonder? Or is it settler, then wonder? Anyway, I usually don't build ancient wonders any more. I find it too risky. In earlier games I would build just one but usually didn't get one of the good ones.

I agree with you Babs rock

	03-06-2002 20:29									#4
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Since the last game I found a new idea which I used in the game I currently play and got away with it. The idea is so simple that I am amazed I didn't think of that earlier.

I started building temple on day 1. Yes, exactly before any warriors or anything else. Then warrior, to guard the city and deal with unrest, then warrior, for scouting and then settler.

I really think it's an interesting idea to experiment with.

	03-06-2002 22:04									#5
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Alkis, your main thrust seems to be the early building of libraries. I'm trying this right now - rushing them, as a matter of fact - in a game with the Babs. I'm also building temples first in some cities, since I have two luxuries. I kept one plains city as a bowman builder, though, and this one burg allowed me to overrun the Persians. My intent was to use culture as a bulwark, but mainly to research as quickly as possible and try to reach space before the eighteenth century. However, I already see a big problem: I'm going to have to build my FP, as I have no GLs, and my capital isn't nearly central enough.

War of Art, how DID you manage to build all those wonders?

	04-06-2002 18:08									#6
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What do you think about my idea of building temple in your capital city before any warriors? I did that only in my last game, the one I still play now and things are ok.

I also had to build the FP manually because I didn't get a GL either. I usually get one GL per game, sometimes none, sometimes 2 but never more. I don't like to go to war. I think your goal to build the spaceship in the 1600ties is realistic, my games usually finish in the 1700ties on Emperor (by space race).

About WoA's achievement the only thing I can think of is that he plays on a lower difficulty level.

	04-06-2002 18:20									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Alkis You got all wonders except HG??? On Emperor?? Please tell me how you did that? You build a city then you start a wonder? Or is it settler, then wonder? Anyway, I usually don't build ancient wonders any more. I find it too risky. In earlier games I would build just one but usually didn't get one of the good ones. I agree with you Babs rock

I don't build ancient wonders either, unless I get a well-timed GL then I like Pyramids or Great Library. Much better to build settlers and improvements, which you are guaranteed not to be beaten to.

	04-06-2002 19:16									#8
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Well, WoA said he was using the Babs, and one thing that they have going for them is that instant UU. Everyone says that ancient Golden Ages are useless, but maybe, if your infrastructure is perfectly balanced, you could use it to grab some wonders. It's a huge risk, but I guess if you get most ancient wonders, you'll probably be in a good position to go on to get the rest of them.

Also, the Babs get cheap temples and libraries, which means more shields that can be allocated to wonders in your central cities.

Also, it just occurred to me that maybe he was playing with 4 or 6 civs. I usually play with 12, which means lots of competition for wonders. The fewer the civs, the easier it will be to grab them.

	04-06-2002 20:33									#9
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MiloMilo,
To have an early ancient GA means you are at war with someone. It also means you have few cities, otherwise it wouldn't be early. So, what are you going to do? Build wonders while you are at war? Isn't it risky?

Or you can start a war to trigger a GA and then try to negotiate as soon as possible. But again, being in Despotism and with just a few cities I don't think it's worth it. Better to wait till Republic and more cities IMHO.

	05-06-2002 02:27									#10
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I don't know. I've done it (not all, but most), on Warlord anyway (play regent now). If you've got the room to set up 7 or 8 cities, you can essentially have the three biggest and most central build warrior, settler, temple, wonder, wonder. Let the other four worry about units, barracks, and more settlers. If the core three cites have decent production and get to size 6 while devoting shields to nothing but wonders, a well-timed (and I mean perfectly-timed) GA can get you three wonders. Depending on where your opponents are in the tech cycle, maybe they'll have to give up rather than switch. Then you can get more.

Obviously this is difficult, especially on Monarch or higher. I usually do this with my capital only - it will build a temple and then focus on a wonder or two. My capital usually ends up way behind my other core cities, building a library while they get universities, etc. But if I get a wonder or two it makes it worth it.

	07-06-2002 23:15									#11
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Txurce, in my last game I got a space victory on 1630. I was playing the Aztecs but didn't war very much. Rather the contrary. I got one leader in the modern era which I didn't use

Something really funny was that every time I signed a peace treaty, most of my celebrating cities stopped celebrating any more. At one time the Persians attacked me. Then half my cities started celebrating ! I sustained a 22 turns war (till my protection pacts expired) without any unrest. That in Democracy. It seems my citizens were fed up with my peacefull attitude Lol

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	07-06-2002 23:38									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Alkis, I think building a temple ahead of a warrior is typical of the high-risk, high-gain approach one needs to dig your way out of the Emperor hole. The same could be said about pumping out a lot of settlers instead of building a defense force. The AI could destroy me in every one of my games at the start, if it wanted to. Clearly it's been programmed not to (most of the time), so our strats take that into account.

A 1630 space-race win blows my mind... and with the Aztecs! How many cities did you have, when did you go into republic, and how useful did you find the science wonders (if at all)? The best I've done is 1725 with Egypt, and that was with neither Copernicus or Newton.

More questions to follow. Great game, Alkis.

	08-06-2002 05:07									#13
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You know of course that on Deity you make an even faster win. IF you win, of course

Anyway, in my game I just had a good start. Random settings but I was put in a big continent with the Americans, the Zulu, the Iroquis and the Persians. All the land on the left and on the north of my capital was jungle (filled with barbarians). Why then I say that it was a good start? Because to the right there was a lot of grassland and most importantly I was given a corner once. In most games I am sandwitched between two civs and this is really really bad. There was a choke point to the right and I managed to build a city there. The Zulus got there first but I had no problem building my city one tile away from theirs. I hoped it would defect but unfortunately that didn't happen.

Anyway all the land from the choke point to the left was mine and I managed to build 15 cities. In the end I think I had about 26. All the wars I did were
with the Americans at about 300 AD (I wanted a golden age),
with the Zulus about 600 AD (they attacked me) and
with the Persians in the modern times (again they attacked me). The first two wars were really short.

I changed to Republic as soon as I had it. You can imagine approximately. I managed to build Newton's; because I already had a good technology and got Theory of gravity first (or maybe second). And Seti program in the same city, my capital. In the end I was really leading technology, maybe 4 techs ahead of all the others. I may have a save if you are interested.

Btw I don't build cities too close to each other, but not far away either. Approximately 3 tiles in between.

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	08-06-2002 06:04									#14
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1630 is easier to understand if it was on Deity; I shaved 100 years off my best from Monarch to Emperor. (Of course, as you pointed out, you first have to win on Deity!)

In effect, you're saying you won the space race on deity playing a pacifist builder strategy, with the Aztecs. You should post this on Vel's Aztec thread.

(By the way, I can't open saves yet with my Mac version of 1.17.)

	10-06-2002 20:17									#15
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No, I didn't say I won on Deity in a pacifist builder strategy. this is something I still try to do.

I won the space race on Deity twice but I wouldn't call it a builder strategy. It was a builder strategy from a point onwards. In both games I attacked my neighbour with horsemen. Then, after the war was successfull I played in builder style. And I wasn't the Aztecs. I played Babs in both games and won a space victory in 1400 something.

But, there are certain conditions necessary, to be successfull. First you have to have horses. Second you have to actually have a neighbour. In a recent game (Deity, standard map, random settings) I was put on an island. At some point a Japaneese galey came by. These bastards had contacts with everybody. But you know what? They wouldn't sell them. After many years when I had a lot more money, they asked for almost 1000 gold to sell me one contact!

I had to research mapmaking, build galeys etc to find the others and that took a long time. When I finally made contact with all the others, I was one whole era behind (lol). I was researching engineering while most of the other civs had rifflemen. As you can imagine I didn't win that game.

What I want is a strategy on Deity that can win in random settings, standard map. I don't like the idea to choose specific settings in order to win. I prefer to play on Emperor with random settings than on Deity with, let's say Pangea and wet environment.

Also, when you make a war, in every battle there is luck involved. I lost just too many Knights attacking longbowmen to be satisfied with this game. On the other hand there are some players who always seem to be successfull in wars. I wonder how that is possible.

I tried many ideas on Deity but I am not ready yet to post a builder strategy on Deity. Especially on the scenario "you alone in a not so good island" your chances are minimal. Unless you can make contact with the others (in some way). Unfortunately there is no Marco Polo in this game

I also experimented with early wonders on Deity. Not the Pyramids but the Colossus and also Great library are interesting. You have to choose specific Civs though, in order to build them.

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	10-06-2002 21:14									#16
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Oh, now I understood, you thought that my Aztecs game was on Deity level.

No, it was on Emperor (standard map, random settings).

	10-06-2002 22:02									#17
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Alkis, , the AI always tries to shaft you with those contacts haha.