24-05-2001 22:57									#31
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Dan M. Thank you. You relize of couse that you are going to make all of us player, re-thing how we play the game.

	24-05-2001 23:04									#32
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Just bumping so everyone can see Dan's response.

	24-05-2001 23:19									#33
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Just wondering: Can you name your colonies?
And if so, how?
E.g. if it's a colony producing iron, you could name it "Iron Hill" or something...

Another idea could be to use historical names: For example if I'm playing as the French my colonies could have names like Montreal, New Orleans or whatever.

	24-05-2001 23:43									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS 7) Resources *do* deplete, depending on use. When this happens, you need to find a new source of iron/oil/uranium/whatever if you want to continue cranking out units that depend on that resource. You *can* find new resources inside your city radius as well.

This is good news - however, the default deplete-rate could (and should) also be Rules.txt tweakable - as always, then it comes to such minor, but pivotal implementations.

The reason this is good news, is because its yet another counter-acting measure against that HP-arrogant "splendid isolation" playing-style. Now, even if you (despite the unevenly distributed resources) nevertheless have managed to build yourself a completely self-sufficient setup of resource networks, that still only going to get you so far.

Also, one nice side-effect is the "resource deplete-factor" is that you cannot as before; quietly & easily crank out enormous quantitys of tanks, howitzers and mec.infantry units - then suddenly blitz-krieg yourself half the world, in one single turn anymore. If you try this - you stand the risk of depleting all your motherland-based special resources all together, which perhaps makes you very vulnerable to AI scorched earth-tactics.

By the way, is it possible to pillage, not just the harvested resource output, but also the special resources in itself? NOT forever of course, but for a certain number of turns - resembling "scorched earth" tactics. This would be a great AI-strategy agains blietz-krieg invading human players.

	24-05-2001 23:53									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS You can actually have many different subnetworks, for example, and each of them might be connected to the capitol in one way or another, but a crafty adversary could, for example, occupy your sole harbor city that links one subnet to another, effectively cutting off an entire continent's trade from the capitol city's continent. Dan

Well, reading this, cities can have their trade connected by harbors, but can colonies on seperate islands be connected to your civ without a harbored city on that island?

Can you block sea trade with naval units (never touching the diplomatic screen) and not declaring war?

	25-05-2001 00:42									#36
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quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV ,but can colonies on seperate islands be connected to your civ without a harbored city on that island?

Well, I only guess; but a coastal-city in both ends, seems to be the most logical assumption here.

quote: Can you block sea trade with naval units (never touching the diplomatic screen) and not declaring war?

Of course you can block sea-trade! Then it comes to AI-diplomatic consequenses it probably resembles the reactions you get then you move a HP-unit within AI city-areas in Civ-2. In other words: Piss off!! - or else...

In Civ-2 one could easily more or less ignore building naval units for a large part of the game, because even if you had AI-ships patrolling directly outside your coastal cities, it didnt effect your economy/production-capacity that much at all. In Civ-3 such AI-ship patrolling outside your coastal-cities have more grave consequences.

	25-05-2001 01:53									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf Of course you can block sea-trade! Then it comes to AI-diplomatic consequenses it probably resembles the reactions you get then you move a HP-unit within AI city-areas in Civ-2. In other words: Piss off!! - or else...

I wouldn't be so quick to say so. My question is, lets say an enemy city is inside a bay. You blockade the bay with your navy, still outside of the enemy borders though. Is this new trade model robust enough to realize that no trade can get through those ships? Or does the model just check to see that there is both of your cities have harbors and there exists a water route between them, regardless of units in between? So the diplomacy screen was never used, but you just created a defacto embargo of that trade route.

Firaxis Dan only said that if you captured the city with the harbor that trade was broken, no mention was made of naval blockades.

I really hope the model is robust, that would be an awesome feature, especially for island hopping and incresing the importance of navies.

	25-05-2001 02:32									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Mahaga but a crafty adversary could, for example, occupy your sole harbor city that links one subnet to another, effectively cutting off an entire continent's trade from the capitol city's continent

Well, if the AI-civ must occupy that HP coastal city (with land-units?), in order to blockade above trade-route, we are suddenly back to square one.
I sincerely hope that this isnt the case. It should be enough for the AI naval military-unit just being inside the HP coastal 21-square city-area, in order to establish a blockade against that city.

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV I wouldn't be so quick to say so. My question is, lets say an enemy city is inside a bay. You blockade the bay with your navy, still outside of the enemy borders though.

Why complicate things? Why must the AI keep track of what foreign naval-units there is, outside its own culture-borders? Why should a blockade even be possible by patrolling naval units outside any 21-square coastal city-areas?

Why isnt it enough that a forreign naval battle-unit inside any fixed 21-square coastal city-area, automatically means blockading that particular city?

	25-05-2001 02:44									#39
	Remove this text

Actions inside culture borders and intrusion of units into borders are acts of war or at least subject to complaints by the enemy which would require unit removal or a war decleration (firaxis has said that much about land units, seeing borders extend into the sea would make it only reasonable that it would be true for naval units as well).

I'm looking at an embargo without declaring war, without having to deal with diplomacy. Bays and ocean straits are ideal for this scenario.

	25-05-2001 11:50									#40
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quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV Actions inside culture borders and intrusion of units into borders are acts of war or at least subject to complaints by the enemy which would require unit removal or a war decleration (firaxis has said that much about land units, seeing borders extend into the sea would make it only reasonable that it would be true for naval units as well).

Just being inside anyones ocean culture-borders should require unit removal or a war decleration - yes, I agree. But, to actually blockade the trade from a coastal city, should require that you place your naval combat-unit on an ocean-square inside the 21-square coastal city-area, I think.

quote: I'm looking at an embargo without declaring war, without having to deal with diplomacy. Bays and ocean straits are ideal for this scenario.

Embargos are hostile act that results in diplomtic reactions. You said it yourself in this quote:
"Actions inside culture borders and intrusion of units into borders are acts of war or at least subject to complaints by the enemy which would require unit removal or a war decleration."

	25-05-2001 16:31									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS You *can* find new resources inside your city radius as well. Dan

w00t! What you mean with finding new resources inside the city radius? Do you mean getting new resources when you get new technology, OR do you mean that you can find "old" resurces inside your city radius? If the last thing is correct, do the resource just suddenly appear or do you have to do some kind of exploring/digging inside your city radius.

	25-05-2001 19:33									#42
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I'm not sure if I will like the limited resources concept.

Doesn't this mean that by the late stage of the game, civilizations will not be able to build a variety of units because there will be NO resources left on ANY tiles that have been used?

This would suck big time.

	25-05-2001 19:54									#43
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heheheee

if Civ3 is an upgrade from civ2 then this is one upgrade thats makes the game totally worth its money


hehhehehee

	25-05-2001 20:05									#44
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Oh yes, resources that are depletable! That's such a good thing :eek. That'll give some sort of economic change over time, collapse of empires, and the need to expand! OH YES, this game just sounds better and better! (and better and better)...

Anyway, on a different tach, when a colony is consumed by the expanding city, I think it would be good if some sort of tile improvement was left. This is purely decorative, and should have no effect on the game whatsoever. I just think it enriches the feel of the game, when you look at the map, and can see that the current landscpe has been influenced by the History within the game, giving your civ a more epic sort of feel.

Similarly, when you win or lose a Major battle (lots of troops killed, or saves a major city nearby), then perhaps the map should be marked with a battlefield, with a little sighnpost saying 'Battle of Cambridge - 1345AD'. This should be nothing too big, or too ostentatious, just a little reminder, you can click on it to read the details....

I know it's eye candy, but it'll give the game a really epic feel to it...


Pingu:

	25-05-2001 20:27									#45
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I was just curious, WTF is ICS??

And you do realize you guys are arguing for the sake of arguing because none of you have a copy of Civ 3, so none of you no for sure if you're right or wrong.

Props to Dan M for taking the time to post on these forums.

"It says on here for interests, you put 'dabut'?"

"No. That's 'Da Butt'."

-The Ladies Man

	25-05-2001 20:35									#46
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ICS = Infinite City Sprawl

It's basically a cheesy strategy where players realize that more population 1 or 2 cities is better than fewer mature, more developed cities.

	25-05-2001 21:57									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS A couple of quick comments: 7) Resources *do* deplete, depending on use. When this happens, you need to find a new source of iron/oil/uranium/whatever if you want to continue cranking out units that depend on that resource. You *can* find new resources inside your city radius as well. Dan

If that is a quick comment then I really want to see you discourse at length on an issue

You've cleared up so many points that were being picked over but if you could be a bit clearer about how you find new resources it would be great. Such a beautiful bombshell to drop on us

Can you tell roughly how large your resource pool is and how fast you are consuming it?
Do new lodes just appear with new tech advances?
Must they be prospected for?
Will prospecting multiple times in one place work better than searching different tiles?
Will it be possible to see on the map which tiles you have prospected and which are still possibilities?
Are they completely random or still fitting some overarching distribution model?
Will the domestic demands on fundamental resources like steel and oil in the modern age be factored at all or only unit construction?
Will leonardo's use resources when upgrading units or do it free of charge?
If it does drain your pool, how do you prevent it from upgrading every unit automatically if you need to conserve certain resources?
If foreign trade is draining your supply, can you set a specific limit of resource to trade per turn?

	25-05-2001 22:43									#48
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They (Firaxis) said when we make a new discovery like Iron Making, then all of the Iron deposit will be visible. Now keep in mind it will be visible only to the Civs that made the discovery. And that bring up another point. You must get out and explore as fast as possible if you want to control a large portion of the resources.

	26-05-2001 00:07									#49
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I'm not sure if I will like the limited resources concept. Doesn't this mean that by the late stage of the game, civilizations will not be able to build a variety of units because there will be NO resources left on ANY tiles that have been used? This would suck big time.

OK, lets take iron as an example. Lets say the iron-tech uncovers a specific number of iron-resources somewhat unevenly distributed all over the world-map. Later, in the medieval era; a certain percentage have already been depleted. But that doesnt necessarily mean that the total number of iron-resources available worldwide have dwindled. Infact, for each iron-mine depleted a new fresh iron-resource suddenly pops up somewhere else on the worldmap. So, most probably, the total number of any specific resources always stays more or less the same. Im only guessing here, of course - but it seems to be a rather probable guess.

Also, what about resouces in the ocean? If you can move out a worker anywhere on the land-map to produce a colony/ exploit a resource - why, shouldnt we expect something similar when it comes to exploit ocean-squares for oil, in modern eras, far away from any coastline?

Finally: I suspect they most probably going to add a cosmic rule deplete-factor in the Rules.txt files, as well.

	26-05-2001 00:37									#50
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Do colonies operate on the square they were built or are they like cities and have a radius?

	26-05-2001 00:40									#51
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On the face of it, I too have doubts about the idea of allowing resources to deplete. I mean, MrFun is right, the later stages of the game would be terrible if there were no really useful resources like iron left.
However, after thinking about it for a minute or two, it occurred to me that the Firaxis playtesters have, or soon will, encounter this problem as well. Since they probably didn't want to run out of resources at the game's end either, I suspect that the problem isn't as serious as we think.
Here is a good idea though, or at least I think that it is. In previous incarnations of Civ, the recycling advance was used to reduce pollution. How about we use recycling in CivIII to reduce the rate at which the resources are depleted. After all, the recycled material has to go somewhere. Just like we get shields back from disbanding a unit inside of a city, recycling should have a similar effect.
Besides, I kind of like the idea of having to watch my resources. I am kind of sick of the strategy of building massive armies of units to perform attacks in the "bludgeon" style. Maybe it's time that I try and build smaller, specialized armies to use the "rapier" approach.

	26-05-2001 00:44									#52
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quote: Originally posted by tniem Do colonies operate on the square they were built or are they like cities and have a radius?

99% sure that they only operates on the square were built. Read Dan Mahagas response on page one.

	26-05-2001 02:45									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf 99% sure that they only operates on the square were built. Read Dan Mahagas response on page one.

Alright that is what I had expected by what I have read but, hey one can always hope.

	26-05-2001 02:53									#54
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Actually, I like the idea that colonies only operate on the square they're established.

It makes them more specialized and distinct from the ordinary cities.

	26-05-2001 03:58									#55
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I'm assuming then that when your culture border expands to encompass a colony, then that resource will always be available as long as a road connects it to a city. This prevents the AI from claiming that resource unless they conquer a nearby city and expand borders/colonize the resource?

Thanks,

Adam

	26-05-2001 04:50									#56
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Good question. Apparently you can build colonies inside enemy territory, so how will that work? Perhaps you have to have a mine or something on the square even when it's within your city borders....

	26-05-2001 05:16									#57
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
A couple of quick comments:




3) Colonies act like pop.1 cities in the sense that if an enemy walks onto an unprotected colony, it destroys the colony. So you need to fortify a couple of strong defensive units and/or build a fort on a colony, otherwise your opponents will just walk in and, blammo, no more Roman Legions can be produced.



Does this mean forts will defend themselves when attacked even if there are no units in it??

	26-05-2001 05:33									#58
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The new info about colonies is nice, esp. that resources will deplete. I hope they'll deal with the problem of, say, all the Iron running out, by having new injections of resources when certain new technologies are discovered. In the case of Iron, mining technology has changed dramatically over time. In the ancient days the resource pretty much had to be on or near the surface, but as time went on they were able to get stuff deeper down. So hopefully, no problem.

However, given what we now know about colonies, I'm puzzled why I would want to build one. Why on earth wouldn't I wait a bit longer and build a new city where I'd build the colony? A cost benefit analysis doesn't make the colony look that appealing, though admittedly we don't know all.

Colony: Costs a population point. Doesn't give you borders, so enemies can attack the colony even if they can't enter your borders. Has to be connected by road for a benefit. Is a dead end - it will eventually cease to be, and leave you nothing. This may even happen early if the resource its on runs out.

New city: Its one downside is it costs two pop points. Does give borders. Doesn't necessarily have to be connected by road for a benefit (for instance a port will do). Is not a dead end. Even if the resource you build it near becomes obsolete, the city is good for so many other things.

There are probably other advantages to cities we don't know about, for instance in Civ2 cities had a defensive bonus even without City Walls. Firaxis says you have to build a fortress on the colony to defend it.

Unless there is some extreme limit to the number of cities I can build, cities seem superior in every way, and the extra 1 pop cost isn't much to pay. Am I missing something here? Instead of building two colonies, I can build one city, and watch it grow and produce from the get-go, and get the benefit of lots of tiles, not just one. Eventually the city will be big and prosperous, while eventually the colony will be nothing.

Something extra needs to be given to colonies, esp. something to remain if a city border overtakes the colony. Its so strange that one would have a thriving resource extraction operation, and then a city gets close to it, and all of the sudden, nothing. Tumbleweeds. Not even a working mine remaining in the case of mined goods or farming in the case of food goods. Strange.

	26-05-2001 05:49									#59
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What would be really cool is if you could bombard a harbor with a naval unit. Like the naval unit can attack the coastal fortress and like how a land unit can attack a city wall.

	26-05-2001 06:34									#60
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quote: You can build colonies anywhere you want (although if you try to build one inside someone else's borders, it's considered an act of war, and your colony will get utterly stomped

This makes me wonder about another civ's borders expanding to a colony of yours that previously existed? Do they attack? what if you're friendly civs? Is there some sort of negotiation?