03-06-2002 00:46									#1
	a solution to blitzkrieges Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have thought of a good solution to the "undefendable border" problem where I time after time got attacked in humongous numbers by enemy forces over along border with multiple cities(where you cant put enough forces in all). there should be added an improvement in modern era ( sometime around refining) that workers can build in any terrain a landmine improvement .any enemy unit that passes on that square will lose automatically 1-3 of health.the effect can only be stopped by a worker unit demining (like the clean pollution command).like in the real world that will give a limited protection from blitzkriegs. to balance that i'd make that the landmined squares couldnt be improved until its demined

	03-06-2002 00:50									#2
	Re: a solution to blitzkrieges Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by dovlvn I have thought of a good solution to the "undefendable border" problem where I time after time got attacked in humongous numbers by enemy forces over along border with multiple cities(where you cant put enough forces in all). there should be added an improvement in modern era ( sometime around refining) that workers can build in any terrain a landmine improvement .any enemy unit that passes on that square will lose automatically 1-3 of health.the effect can only be stopped by a worker unit demining (like the clean pollution command).like in the real world that will give a limited protection from blitzkriegs. to balance that i'd make that the landmined squares couldnt be improved until its demined

Sounds good, but how about just 1 hp damage but it also eats all the movement points. That would give you time to bring in the defenders.

	03-06-2002 00:55									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Undefendable borders should be held by large armies. Otherwise, there is no penalty for the undefendable borders that you yourself created. The situation you described sounds like excellent AI tactics, not a area of the game needing correction.

	03-06-2002 00:59									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

agreed with cyclotron7

	03-06-2002 01:17									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

1.movement points as a extra possible penalty is a good idea as well

2.not just AI.in large and huge maps you can have long borders naturally without any wrong doing (or over pacifistic game play).
making any aggressors job unusualy easy no matter how large your army is: just find the single border city with less than 4 units and attack (some AIs have great spies...)
anyway not just AI can use some defence tactics so could many players not in the mood at that moment for a war (like some germans waiting for their panzers ) or someone in a mood for
culture spaceship victorys

	03-06-2002 01:45									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

mindfields built by workers = excessive micromanagement.

	03-06-2002 05:55									#7
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I to agree with cyclotron7. If you sreate a long border for yourself, it is your job to defend it. This is actually something the AI does well at (without "bonuses"), we should be glad!

	03-06-2002 07:13									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ive NEVER had a city that I personally founded taken by the AI after the ancient era. The only cities ive lost due to military invasion are 1) cities in the ancient area on the boarders that only have like 2 warriors guarding it. 2) when im invading the enemy and I make the mistake of over extending my forces, and the AI takes back a city the next turn.

After ive had time to establish myself, ive never lost a city to the AI because I always have at least 2-3 squares of territory between one of my cities and the boarder. This means only cavalry and modern armor can hit one of my cities in the first turn. If a huge force of infantry or whatever invades, they are bombarded by artillary for 1 or 2 turns, then attacked by fast moving offensive units. Ill fortify strong defenders infront of cities in danger on hills, mountains, or forests to give them defensive advanatges. If im in dire danger, ill even use the worker distraction, place a worker close to the city, and the AI will ALWAYS go for the worker before a city.

I remeber one awesome game I had when I was at war with the Germans. They sent a stack of about 20 cavalry, 60 infantry, and 20 riflemen at me. I was scared, thinking id lose at least a few cities to the attack. But I bombarded the invaders to soften them, and injured units retreat. I put my own infantry (I had maybe 1/3 as many) on the hills, and put workers under them to lure them to the strong defensive positions (God the AI is obsessed with my workers) After a few turns, and using every unit I had to fight them, their army was about 1/3 the size and the rest were in retreat. My arty kept bombarding them as they ran from my territory, and then my cavalry persued them, killing the stronger, but injured infantry off. I was then able to do my own invasion and take 1/2 thier territory because of thier now under defended territory.

When facing a strong enemy, it is a really good strategy to let them attack first. It was a roman strategy later in the empire to actually let the invaders in, THEN attack them, that way they had home turf advantage. In Civ3, this is great because you have free movement, while they do not, and you can constantly bring in reenforcemnts, while they cannot. If you play well you can reduce a much larger force to nothing in a few turns, then send your forces in after their army is dead.

	03-06-2002 09:10									#9
	Remove this text

build forests at the boarder, this effectively nullifies any invasion force, provided that a) you have a force ready to deal with the invaders and b) they do not bring in marines, grab a city and go from there, but then again using marines should be rewarded.

	03-06-2002 09:22									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

VetteroX,

Yes. Good tactics.

I get the same emotional thrill you do (I think).

Terror.

Resolution.

Determinedness.

Vindication (the living hell that the retreating enemy go through, trying just to get out, and being bombarded / attacked every step of the way... "You had the f-cking temerity to come into my house??!!").

Then, when on the counter-attack, the sheer terror in the cities that I bombard, as in 1-2 turns, I destroy their Barracks, Library, Marketplace, University, etc., and at the same time reduce pop from 17 to 2-3.

Must be something wrong with me...

	03-06-2002 12:26									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX mindfields built by workers = excessive micromanagement.

not too much any way any defensive imp (like fort) requires some human internvention

	03-06-2002 12:43									#12
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by VetteroX When facing a strong enemy, it is a really good strategy to let them attack first. It was a roman strategy later in the empire to actually let the invaders in, THEN attack them, that way they had home turf advantage. In Civ3, this is great because you have free movement, while they do not, and you can constantly bring in reenforcemnts, while they cannot. If you play well you can reduce a much larger force to nothing in a few turns, then send your forces in after their army is dead.

by mod era I have so much terrain improvement in place that such a tactic (esp with an important resourse) can cause more damage than good.the aI pillages so much that my attaced cities drop to pop 2-3 and dont come back for a long time.and if we're into historic analogies yeah the french won wwI with the enemy deep in their borders but half of france was back in the stone age (pyhrric victory...) taking generation to recover

	03-06-2002 13:04									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Whoha build forests at the boarder, this effectively nullifies any invasion force, provided that a) you have a force ready to deal with the invaders and b) they do not bring in marines, grab a city and go from there, but then again using marines should be rewarded.

1 cant build everywhere forests (mountains etc) and anyway that gives the attacker a defensive bonus as well (when his troops are on that forest you have the counter attack problem )
artilary also succeeds less on forest located units.actually a forest can be more a bonus to the attacker in some cases
a landmine imp will make them stop (or damaged) without getting any benefits
2 there should be some reward for hard work in fortification of borders as well . it should be harder to attack a enemy that worked hard on his defences than the mere 'lucky' one (sorrounded by jungles.. )

	03-06-2002 16:34									#14
	Remove this text

A bit too much, with those landmines.

I have one neighbour on my continent, with only one border. Three sides of our empires are near the ocean, fourth sides form the border. I build Landmines in each square along the border, and each square behind it - two rows, thusly. In the third row, I put artillery. It's all. They can do nothing then but to lose hell number of units before they actually invade. Too powerful.

	03-06-2002 20:07									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Agree with most, landmines are unnecessary. There are enough tools available without landmines, consider
1- relocating empire to more defensible geography
2- building fortresses
3- cities on hills
4- catapault/artillery
5- pikemen/infantry
6- horse/cav to pick off red sitting ducks
7- keeping city under 7 so can use walls
8- sacrificing workers to redirect force
9- trying to build at least 15-20 cities
10- increase your GNP

In last game I had 60 foreign units within 1 tile of city, and it held. They walked past but did not attack city. By time reached second row of cities, they were stopped.
How, using strategies above {except for fortress and walls. I decide on geo-politics whether to use fortresses, only use if very weak other wise go for military or growth.}

Solver-- how can you build 2 rows of landmines when there aren't landmines in the game? Two rows of forest without roads really slows invasion to a crawl.

Incidently I have discovered the value of forests. In a couple cities, not mining all, but switching some mines to forest allows me to get 3-4 extra shields per turn. That can really add up.

	03-06-2002 20:33									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I finally discovered a use for my non-upgradeable Legions: I line my borders with them. Kind of my own version of the Roman Limes used by the Empire on the norther border. The benefits are:

1. No freely wandering AI units in my territory.
2. Any land attack immediately hits a wall of troops.
3. Sometimes the Legions actually win.

Now I'm only in the Industrial Age, and the French still seem heavily reliant on Musketeers, so this should work for now. We'll see how it plays out.

Oh, and no landmines for me, thanks. I think the inability to use enemy roads/rails is penalty enough in foreign territory without adding mines.

	03-06-2002 20:50									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Planetfall, I was imagining what would it be like if it existed.

	03-06-2002 20:56									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: I think the inability to use enemy roads/rails is penalty enough in foreign territory without adding mines.

One might say there might already be mines there, and thats one reason that it takes so long to get thru enemy territory right ? I would assume that any defending nation would do whatever it could to slow its invaders...

How about we just assume mines are there, planting them would be too much stuff - instead - why not just build fortifications and plant a bunch of guys in there, when the computer tries to walk by them you get free pot-shots on them, and if they choose to attack, its there lose...

	03-06-2002 21:54									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I usually just leave my interior cities fairly undefended while my border and outpost cities are over defended. leaving my cav. and other offensive units back for a counter offensive. Once attacked they rarely have enough offensive units to take the city in question on the first thrust leaving a great number of units in reserve to counter the remaining enemy units left on my territory. I then immediately destroy all improvements just over my borders to slow any further attacks. doing this I once destroyed over 150 mech. attacking a lone outpost on an enemy held continent. For some reason during that game none of the AI's would build Armor just mech???? Needless to say it took for ever to get my next turn.
Another point is that the AI rarely attacks with no warning. He is almost always atleast annoyed with you prior to attack. So if you don't want a war with him you had better keep his oppinion of you in good standing.

	03-06-2002 22:09									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by planetfall Agree with most, landmines are unnecessary. There are enough tools available without landmines, consider 1- relocating empire to more defensible geography

relocate your empire!

	03-06-2002 22:44									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

"1 cant build everywhere forests (mountains etc) and anyway that gives the attacker a defensive bonus as well (when his troops are on that forest you have the counter attack problem )
artilary also succeeds less on forest located units.actually a forest can be more a bonus to the attacker in some cases
a landmine imp will make them stop (or damaged) without getting any benefits
2 there should be some reward for hard work in fortification of borders as well . it should be harder to attack a enemy that worked hard on his defences than the mere 'lucky' one (sorrounded by jungles.. )"

Mountains work great as well, he gets prevented from moving, as in civ3 roads and rails are not usable by an enemy force.Do not believe that any civ that is surrounded by jungles is by any means a "lucky" one, that is one of the most worthless starts in the game, and in any event with the forest strat you will require alot of workers terraforming, placing forts, rails, forests,etc as you will have to build rails for your troops, and forts on deserts and flood plains, and perhaps forts on key mountains that you wish to prevent the enemy from taking or landing on.

The really evil thing here is that a forest will take 2 movement points away. Any 3 move attacker will move off of the forest, and onto a square in which they have no defensive bonus as it is the ai. But even if he stops on the defensive terrain, you have a situation where it is cavalry with an attack of 6, vs cavalry with a defend of 3 + the terrain bonus and with no possible retreat. Or you have tanks with attack of 16 vs 8, or 24 vs 16. Unless of course you would like to fight those cavalry, reinforced with defensive troops and possessing the defensive bonus that cities which used to be in your possession will grant.

	04-06-2002 00:05									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If they are in a forested area, or hills/mountains. Just surround them with defensive units of your own, Bombard him as much as you can and them let him attack your fortified units. Sure you'll loose some but not as much as if you were attacking him. The AI will always attack units it feels are a threat to him. I do the same thing with Amphibious landings. Land a **** load of defensive units on land with a defensive bonus, hills, forest mountains especially. Then let his army kill itself off while you keeps drawing his good units out to die.

	04-06-2002 00:17									#23
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by rhenric557 For some reason during that game none of the AI's would build Armor just mech????

They added flags so the AI could use a unit for defense AND offense. They flagged Infantry and Mech Infantry for both, and now the AI doesn't think it needs tanks. I went into the editor and set Infantry and Mech Inf to defense only for my current game. Results should be available after this evening (I'm only a few turns away from Tanks....).

	04-06-2002 01:24									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yah, I noticed that and made the same fix.

	04-06-2002 11:36									#25
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by rhenric557 If they are in a forested area, or hills/mountains. Just surround them with defensive units of your own, Bombard him as much as you can and them let him attack your fortified units. Sure you'll loose some but not as much as if you were attacking him. The AI will always attack units it feels are a threat to him. I do the same thing with Amphibious landings. Land a **** load of defensive units on land with a defensive bonus, hills, forest mountains especially. Then let his army kill itself off while you keeps drawing his good units out to die.

that may be a good idea for the current AI. vs a better AI (in ptw)
or humans it wont work that easily.

	04-06-2002 11:51									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Whoha The really evil thing here is that a forest will take 2 movement points away. Any 3 move attacker will move off of the forest, and onto a square in which they have no defensive bonus as it is the ai. But even if he stops on the defensive terrain, you have a situation where it is cavalry with an attack of 6, vs cavalry with a defend of 3 + the terrain bonus and with no possible retreat. Or you have tanks with attack of 16 vs 8, or 24 vs 16. Unless of course you would like to fight those cavalry, reinforced with defensive troops and possessing the defensive bonus that cities which used to be in your possession will grant.

vs a human (as I hope it'll be in a few months) forests will not be good enough. just 1 possible tactic:bombard with bombers the forest squares till they go back to orginal condition, then let the attacking units through
land mines will also show a basic fact of warefare in mod times (somewhat missing in civ):direct attacks on well fortified cities are horrendesly expensive no matter how little forces you actually use for defence (see stalingrad mogadishu etc) because of damage from defences (bobytraps snipers etc)

	04-06-2002 12:03									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by ShredZ One might say there might already be mines there, and thats one reason that it takes so long to get thru enemy territory right ? I would assume that any defending nation would do whatever it could to slow its invaders... How about we just assume mines are there, planting them would be too much stuff - instead - why not just build fortifications and plant a bunch of guys in there, when the computer tries to walk by them you get free pot-shots on them, and if they choose to attack, its there lose...

landmines are free potshots which enable you to put those defensive units where they are supposed to be- in the cities not out side waiting like lame ducks. as for assumptions the movement constraint doesnt show land mines -it show incompatible rail systems (as happen to nazis in russia) antway no unit gets damage by the movement (as landmines certainly do)

	04-06-2002 12:24									#28
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Fortresses are enough: there is already a blitzkreig defence.

Remember in Civ 2 where you could use your enemy's roads? THAT was a blitzkreig. Now, the defender has 3x the mobility with roads. Railroads are a game imbalance that should be removed

Never has a nation been able to use all of its forces in all places at once

The blitzkreig is nearly impossible to do like it used to be. The game really is more balanced (and the AI much smarter) than in Civ 2. I think railroads should give 1/5 movement points, and roads give 1/2. The 3x mobility is very high for defenders, it should just be 2x. Railroads shouldn't be teleporters

	04-06-2002 21:10									#29
	Support Apolyton

A defense should never stack up in the cities; anyone who does that deserves to be eliminated. You need a mobile, in-the-field defensive army, and a feature like "landmines" should not be included just to make life easier. If you have a big border, you defend it. Forts help, and they give the "free shots" that you want from landmines. So, build a string of forts. It works for me.

	04-06-2002 22:21									#30
	Put an end to popups!

quote: antway no unit gets damage by the movement (as landmines certainly do)

Not entirely true, yes obviously ppl take damage from mines, but their intent is not to kill, when a mine goes off and leaves a man on the ground screaming about a missing leg, it takes 2 soldiers to pick him up and carry him to safety, thats 3 soldiers now being taken out of action, 2/3 of which are perfectly healthy. Hence, you move slower thru enemy territory, it makes perfect sence to me...