04-06-2002 02:24									#91
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by red_jon LOL! I laughhed at the "anti-American" exchange. That was funny God, will people stop using 11/9 - 9/11?! It got old and died. Just seeing those numbers makes me irate - its been used as an excuse for everything. Just because of that tragedy it does not mean people should change their political perspectives. I mean it was awful but its been so overused it means nothing anymore.

Actually, you brought it up first.

	04-06-2002 02:26									#92
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No problem with handouts, but it's when people expect things back from countries with virtually nothing to give back that gets me annoyed. Did you know that for every £1 third world countries are given in aid, £9 goes back in debt payoffs?

	04-06-2002 02:29									#93
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Americans just aren't as cynical as us Europeans are. If someone says something bad about one of our governments all you here are screams of B@stards and "Burn them at the stake" as we know that the worse it is the greater the likelihood of it being true. Whereas the Yanks can never view anything that the Government does in a suspicious way, or so it seems. Maybe its because they have enjoyed a democracy for longer, in that we are used to be shafted by the distant power brokers. While their power brokers have been made up from them and so view with less suspicion.

	04-06-2002 02:35									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

SMAC Fanatic is absolutely right in the sense that loans and debt have been used to keep countries in povert for a long time now. The UK has been doing it for years as have most of the other major powers. It seems a shame that most of our charity is being spent clearing up the damage created by a few rich power brokers.

	04-06-2002 02:39									#95
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

SMAC Fanatic: The general idea though, is to loan money (and we're about equally likely to loan as we are to simply give the money away) to other countries with the expectation that they'll use it to....you know...build up their country a bit. Get some infrastructure in place to allow them to create jobs, jumpstart the economy, get more tax dollars flowing in and be in a position to pay it back.

The reality is though, that more often than not, our money goes to fund the latest round of war because little kinglet A is upset that little kinglet B doesn't like him, or has a bigger pen*s or (fill in the blank with the usual array of petty squabbling) and instead of using the money for stuff that would grow the economy and enable them to service the debt, it goes for guns.

It's like dealing with high school kids. You can get them to the door of the school, but if they don't wanna be there, they'll find a way not to be there.

BlackStone: Not 100% sure I agree with you....lol...we're a pretty rampantly suspicious lot where government is concerned. Nahhh, correction there....we're pretty much convinced that everybody in the government is up to no good...

-=Vel=-

	04-06-2002 02:47									#96
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by SMAC Fanatic No problem with handouts, but it's when people expect things back from countries with virtually nothing to give back that gets me annoyed. Did you know that for every £1 third world countries are given in aid, £9 goes back in debt payoffs?

Here's an example for you:

I give you 1000$ to help you start a business, knowing that when the businessgets up and running, you will pay me back. Now you get it up and running, but it runs like crap. You still owe me 1000 dollars, whether or not you used it correctly. And if you had listened to the advisors I sent to help you, you would have been better off.

	04-06-2002 03:12									#97
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Faeelin Actually, you brought it up first.

Actually, Cali said "It didnt take long after 9/11 for this kind of crap to start up again did it?" in the first post.

So there.

Cali, my point was in refuting the comments that the euros are thin skinned and can't take insults.

	04-06-2002 08:09									#98
	Put an end to popups!

quote: As I've said many times in many places; I've been called worse by better people, but thanks for noticing, Cal

Funny, that; you're quoting a Canadian PM responding to an American President's insults.

I can't believe that anybody with an ounce of sense in their heads was offended by a quick potshot like that, so I'm going to have to assume that those who claim to be are simply playing along with the troll...

	04-06-2002 16:13									#99
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Here's an example for you: I give you 1000$ to help you start a business, knowing that when the businessgets up and running, you will pay me back. Now you get it up and running, but it runs like crap. You still owe me 1000 dollars, whether or not you used it correctly. And if you had listened to the advisors I sent to help you, you would have been better off.

How about I do manage to set up the business to run reasonably well, but it's only producing enough (despite all your good advice) to pay off the punitive compound interest that you've levelled on the $1000 loan? Where does that leave me?

	04-06-2002 19:56									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: well, thanks for the sentiment Cal, but I think St. Marcus' answer pretty much sums it up. Trolls will be trolls...

Exactly. Threads like this are the reason most people troll.

Trolls come in two kinds. The ones that try to provoke a reaction, and the ones that actually believe the crap they're posting. I'm the former, since I usually post a lot of bull. But thanks to Cali here, I'm not inclined to stop.

	04-06-2002 20:20									#101
	Suffering from ads?

When Americans think their might be a chance that their own politicians and business executives may have made mistakes that led up to 9/11, or might have been gross neglect that allowed 9/11, other Americans automatically label them as unpatriotic and get too huffed up or emotional with those Americans they disagree with, on this issue.

No sir --- American leaders never make any mistakes that lead to our own country's crises.

	04-06-2002 20:23									#102
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Not to mention that it's a heck of a lot easier to make a decision after the fact.

	04-06-2002 20:27									#103
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Not to mention that it's a heck of a lot easier to make a decision after the fact.

We were all shocked I'm sure when this happened.

But the intelligentia and the leaders of our country should have a lot more information in their hands than us average citizens like you and me.

Israel, some European nations, and African nations have all suffered terrorist attacks.
We just thought that our country was invincible. How does that mindset enable us to prevent terrorist attacks in our country?

	04-06-2002 20:29									#104
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Exactly. Threads like this are the reason most people troll. Trolls come in two kinds. The ones that try to provoke a reaction, and the ones that actually believe the crap they're posting. I'm the former, since I usually post a lot of bull. But thanks to Cali here, I'm not inclined to stop.

Naaaww, really?

-Arrian

	04-06-2002 20:31									#105
	Remove this text

And all I'm saying is that with all the alleged "warnings" given, I still doubt it could have been averted.
It's like locks. Locks keep basicly honest people out, but don't really do to much to keep out a dedicated thief.

	04-06-2002 20:34									#106
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand And all I'm saying is that with all the alleged "warnings" given, I still doubt it could have been averted. It's like locks. Locks keep basicly honest people out, but don't really do to much to keep out a dedicated thief.

But with the loss of 3,000++ American lives I would think that there would have been SOME WAY that we could have done better.

	04-06-2002 20:41									#107
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Maybe. Maybe not. Lets say that the FBI or CIA, or any other agency for that matter was warned by an informant or friendly government that a terrorist group was planning a major attack on US soil.

Now imagine you are running said agency. How do you prevent 9/11?

-Arrian

	04-06-2002 20:49									#108
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Maybe. Maybe not. Lets say that the FBI or CIA, or any other agency for that matter was warned by an informant or friendly government that a terrorist group was planning a major attack on US soil. Now imagine you are running said agency. How do you prevent 9/11? -Arrian

1) Those suspects that the CIA was aware of beforehand -- I would have immediately apprehended them for questioning.

2) The belated debate over whether airline pilots should be given stun guns in cockpits -- I would have had this proposal carried out, based on the above hypothetical warning you posted.

3) All other flight trainees who were requesting to only know how to fly and not land or take off, would also be brought in for questioning.

4) The fighter jets that would have been able to reach and intercept the planes would have been given an immediate warning and promptly intercepted the planes.

I'm not sure what other preparation measures I would enact.

	04-06-2002 20:52									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

That's it, I say we hire Mr. Fun as director of the FBI.

Look, all I'm saying is that it's pretty easy for you to say all of that now.

I think the biggest lapse was where it always seems to be: getting the critical information to the right people. Just like Pearl Harbor (let's leave the conspiracy theory out of it... it's possible, I know), where we had intercepts that indicated the Japanese fleet was coming, but the info didn't make it to Washington in time.

-Arrian

	04-06-2002 20:57									#110
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Arrian That's it, I say we hire Mr. Fun as director of the FBI. Look, all I'm saying is that it's pretty easy for you to say all of that now. I think the biggest lapse was where it always seems to be: getting the critical information to the right people. Just like Pearl Harbor (let's leave the conspiracy theory out of it... it's possible, I know), where we had intercepts that indicated the Japanese fleet was coming, but the info didn't make it to Washington in time. -Arrian

Hindsight is always this way -- and at least I'm not claiming that I knew something like this was going to happen before 9/11.

But those people who work for the FBI and the CIA -- maybe they should have reformed their systematic methods in distributing and correlating all the information they receive.

But alas, that won't bring back the 3,000++ dead Americans.

	04-06-2002 21:11									#111
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by MrFun 1) Those suspects that the CIA was aware of beforehand -- I would have immediately apprehended them for questioning.

And you could be sued, you can't just question people and arrest them unless they ACTUALLY did something.
Untill 9/11 they were guilty of getting flying lessons.

quote: 2) The belated debate over whether airline pilots should be given stun guns in cockpits -- I would have had this proposal carried out, based on the above hypothetical warning you posted.

The planes need to have some form of defense, stun guns sounds like a good non-lethal method.

quote: 3) All other flight trainees who were requesting to only know how to fly and not land or take off, would also be brought in for questioning.

Again, you can't just arrest people and question them unless they did something.
Our own Constitution prohibits this.

quote: 4) The fighter jets that would have been able to reach and intercept the planes would have been given an immediate warning and promptly intercepted the planes.

Could Bush have given such an order BEFORE the first plane hit the WTC?
It had never been done before (suicide hijacked airliner), suppose that wasn't the plan and Bush ordered an airforce plane to kill a plane load of US hostages.
He would have been lynched.

quote: I'm not sure what other preparation measures I would enact.

Your speaking with 20/20 hindsight.
Perhaps they could have put these people under survalence, but the desire to commit a terrorist act isn't against the law, commiting or attempting to commit it is a crime.
There are very tricky leagal questions involved that I'm not qualified to answer in reguards to this.

	04-06-2002 21:20									#112
	Got spare money?

SMAC Fanatic,

quote: Did you know that for every £1 third world countries are given in aid, £9 goes back in debt payoffs?

Do you understand anything about the time value of money? www.teachmefinance.com <-- Have a look.

If the countries had used the money sensibly, they would be able to pay it back. Allowing countries that used money irresponsibly to be free of any debt repayments is giving an incentives to countries in the future to use handouts irresponsibly.

But is moral hazard a little too complex for lefties to understand..?

	04-06-2002 21:22									#113
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Scary thing is, Chris...before 9/11, it would have been illegal to arrest people before they did anything. Not any more, apparently....

-=Vel=-

	04-06-2002 21:25									#114
	Increase Your PM Length

You can and could detain people for "suspicion of".
Still, it's doubtful the outcome could have been prevented.
I'm probably wrong, but I doubt that too.

	04-06-2002 21:28									#115
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Airforce, you can detain for 24 hours, and they are allowed a laywer present before answering anything.

You think those punks would have spilled their guts?

Highly unlikely.

	04-06-2002 21:32									#116
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The thing that to this day ticks me off is the way investigations about the events surrounding 9/11 are being squelched by the current administration.

The fact is that two big planes hit two big buildings in the US of A.

After the first plane hit, there was a span of time before the second plane hit.

If someone somewhere knew about it, then let's hear it. Let's research and investigate and find out what went wrong with the protocols that are in place (or that were in place on 9/11) and find out exactly where we went wrong.

That seems a sane, logical, reasonable approach.

Finding answers to questions that need to be asked.

It does not seem sane, or logical, or reasonable to stop investigations into the matter cold.

Unless there's something to hide, of course.

-=Vel=-
(not saying there IS something to hide, btw...just asking the question)

	04-06-2002 21:36									#117
	Tired of ads?

It was less then 15 minutes between plane hits, not a lot of time.

We always do this, look to point a finger.

The only thing we can really point at is our own way of life, having an open society.

That sh1thead OBL knows this, and used it against us perfectly.

Bush isn't to blame, nor the CIA or FBI, WE are to blame, because we didn't take those jerks seriously.

We do now, as they have found out to thier extreme discomfort the last 9 months, and it's not over by a long shot.

	04-06-2002 21:40									#118
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Chris...I agree with you.

But that still doesn't answer the question why the current administration is stomping any and all investigation into the matter flat.

If fifteen minutes isn't a big enough window...then that is a valid answer, and investigation will bear that out.

But the investigation is not being allowed to proceed.

That's....troubling.

-=Vel=-

	04-06-2002 21:42									#119
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I just want to point out that how long a person can be held that you referenced pertains to citizens of the country only.
They've had punks held at Guantanamo Bay for a lot longer than 24 hours, thankfully IMO.
You are certainly right about finger pointing.

	04-06-2002 21:42									#120
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

It is all the more troubling because we ARE known for having a relatively open society.

-=Vel=-