03-06-2002 02:20									#1
	FIRAXIS! No More Draft! Hell, No, We Won't Go! Got spare money?

"No More Draft! Hell, No, We Won't Go!" What is up with that? If a city is constantly drafted or pop rushed, its citizen will be very unhappy - so far so good here. However, when that city is conquered by another civ (or by me), the unhappiness dued to those recent draft or pop rush shouldn't be transfered to the new owner.

I really hate it when I conquer a city and find out that there is nothing I could do to make those people content becuase their previous ruler treated them like dirt! I think the people should be smarter than that and realize that I am not like their previous cruel ruler. May be Firaxis could do something about this in the next patch. Thanks!

	03-06-2002 02:28									#2
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Well, in support of the idea, unhappy people won't suddenly become happy now that they have been taken over... their loved ones are still out on the battlefield, remember?

Still, you have a valid point, and I have asked myself that same question in my games. Perhaps there would be only 50% of the effect, unless you started drafting from that city (in which case you would be slammed with the full 100% immediatly).

	03-06-2002 02:31									#3
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this topic AGIAN? uugghhhhhhhh

	03-06-2002 02:37									#4
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quote: Originally posted by ALPHA WOLF 64 this topic AGIAN? uugghhhhhhhh

Sorry, I am not aware that you guys have talked about this before.

	03-06-2002 04:00									#5
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No problem. Happens all the time. Don't let the grumps bother you.

Congrats on your game BTW.

	03-06-2002 04:04									#6
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Still, you have a valid point, and I have asked myself that same question in my games. Perhaps there would be only 50% of the effect, unless you started drafting from that city (in which case you would be slammed with the full 100% immediatly).

This is, in fact, the way it works... if you capture a city, the previous effects of draft/rushing are cut in half.

	03-06-2002 04:06									#7
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What if it goes to another player? 50% cut again?

	03-06-2002 05:06									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis This is, in fact, the way it works... if you capture a city, the previous effects of draft/rushing are cut in half.

Thanks, Soren. What part is halved? The duration or the "intensity?"

	03-06-2002 07:10									#9
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Interesting... I had noted recently, when capturing cities but immediately letting them be re-captured and capturing them again (I've been experimenting with extreme aggressive expansion, and can;t defend as well as I can attack), that, not only is the smaller size (2 pop less) helpful, but that the citizens are more "manageable."

I'd be interested to hear more from Soren or someone else as to the exact machanism.

Thanks, Soren, for the input.

	03-06-2002 18:39									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis This is, in fact, the way it works... if you capture a city, the previous effects of draft/rushing are cut in half.

Thank you for your quick response.

	03-06-2002 23:20									#11
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You know Soren, one day you are gonna hafta post all of the little things about Civ III we don't know about.

	04-06-2002 00:20									#12
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Unhappiness relative to draft and forced labor should be linked to a civilization.
Example : Washington has been drafted twice and lost one pop to rushing by the evil Abe. Then the Babylonians capture it, and draft another unit. Then Egypt jump on the city and pop-rush two people. Then Americans retake the city.

Here is the city "unhappiness" : 3 toward Americans, 2 toward Egyptians and 1 toward Babylonians.
Simple, logical and practical.

	04-06-2002 16:04									#13
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What would be cool would be if you could prepear reserves, Draft units that don't give the anti-draft civilian effect, but they only get drafted in after somthing like a nuclear attack, or if you lose 5+ of your original citys, or your normal army gets killed off loads!
-----------------------------------------------
Another idea for reserves, is you can pay to train as meny as you want, and if you ever need them you can alocate them to different areas (land, sea, air) and those units take half the time to build (cuz your only building the unit, the trainings already complete!). So, if you ever find you have a cash flow problem, but really need to research for that new weapon, you can keep your militerys size a bit lower than normal, and if a few of them die in a war, you can get your reserves into action!

	04-06-2002 18:28									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Example : Washington has been drafted twice and lost one pop to rushing by the evil Abe. Then the Babylonians capture it, and draft another unit. Then Egypt jump on the city and pop-rush two people. Then Americans retake the city. Here is the city "unhappiness" : 3 toward Americans, 2 toward Egyptians and 1 toward Babylonians. Simple, logical and practical.

It's not that simple in real life! If that really happens to you in real life, how do you feel? If the Americans treated you badly, the Egyptians treated you badly, the Babylonians treated you badly, then now the French is talking over. How do you feel about the French? Do you really think that they are your savior or do you think that they are no different than your previous evil rulers?

In real life, there is a thing called psychological and emotional damage. If you are getting hurt by humans over and over again, eventually, you will distrust all humans. It's a lot like brain washing...you will eventually hate all rulers even though the last one is your true savior.

	04-06-2002 18:38									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Moonsinger It's not that simple in real life! If that really happens to you in real life, how do you feel? If the Americans treated you badly, the Egyptians treated you badly, the Babylonians treated you badly, then now the French is talking over. How do you feel about the French? Do you really think that they are your savior or do you think that they are no different than your previous evil rulers? In real life, there is a thing called psychological and emotional damage. If you are getting hurt by humans over and over again, eventually, you will distrust all humans. It's a lot like brain washing...you will eventually hate all rulers even though the last one is your true savior.

That's true.
But we don't need to have a psychological analysis of the damages done and the recovery time and so on. We need a simple and efficient system to SIMULATE reality.
I think that linking the unhappiness to each civ make the player to "take his responsabilities" in the fact that he's not punished just because the AI forced labored its population, and that he can't hamper the AI the same way.
And well, your example works for population that is constantly tyrannised.
Now, imagine that you are the Japaneses, you have a city with perfectly happy citizens, and China capture it, pop-rush three pop points, and you retake the city. Still, you have to cope the hatred of people toward you, while you defended the city and liberated it.

Maybe that my method is not perfect, but it still makes more sense in my opinion.

	04-06-2002 19:06									#16
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Hazie's idea....

I like that idea about reserves. A good way to spend some of that extra cash you have lying around sometimes without having to manage 900,000 units.

Akka...

Good point. The Japanese people in that city would be mad at you for letting them fall into the hands of that Chinese tyrant.

	04-06-2002 19:14									#17
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quote: Originally posted by dunk999 Akka... Good point. The Japanese people in that city would be mad at you for letting them fall into the hands of that Chinese tyrant.

You mean, just like the Parisians were mad at de Gaulle because he let them fall in the hands of the Germans ?

	04-06-2002 21:01									#18
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This is a kind of paraphrasing myslef, but Akka: Keep in mind that the fact that a city has been captured or liberated doesn't mean their family, etc. has returned from war. There is still likely to be anger over the draft, and a lot of apprehension about whether the new power will draft them...

	05-06-2002 16:32									#19
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Dunk999: a good way to handle your units, if you fortify all the units your not using, that way they are never auto-selected, and it auto-selects all the ones that are idle and not fortified (idle meaning you might be taking person control of a load of tanks who are buisy attacking someplace!).

	05-06-2002 16:51									#20
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Here's a hint, just raze the damn city. Genocide is wonderful

	05-06-2002 18:34									#21
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 This is a kind of paraphrasing myslef, but Akka: Keep in mind that the fact that a city has been captured or liberated doesn't mean their family, etc. has returned from war. There is still likely to be anger over the draft, and a lot of apprehension about whether the new power will draft them...

I understand your point of view, but I don't share it. It's not because Germans killed my dad or Babylonians forced my brother into draft that I will hate my own government for liberating me. Personnal sadness has nothing to do with being angry with government.

If the Egyptians never drafted anyone, why should I protest against their drafts ?

	06-06-2002 00:48									#22
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quote: Originally posted by HazieDaVampire Dunk999: a good way to handle your units, if you fortify all the units your not using, that way they are never auto-selected, and it auto-selects all the ones that are idle and not fortified (idle meaning you might be taking person control of a load of tanks who are buisy attacking someplace!).

Yeah, but then I have to wake them up when I want to use them. And put them somewhere useful.

I'm lazy.

	06-06-2002 00:57									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil You mean, just like the Parisians were mad at de Gaulle because he let them fall in the hands of the Germans ?

No, not like that. Let's use a different example.

Civ A has a large army comparable to Civ B and is able to defend City X.

Civ B invades Civ A.

Civ A doesn't want to defend City X, so Civ A decides to abandon City X, or at least only defend it lightly, knowing it can be retaken later. How many times have you done that in a Civ game? I know I have plenty of times.

Civ B takes City X and is none to nice to the inhabitants.

I would think the people in City X would be mad at both the ruler of Civ B (for being a tyrant) and of Civ A (for leaving them to be captured, but to a lesser degree than Civ B). Which is how it works.

Makes sense to me.

	06-06-2002 00:59									#24
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I have a variation on this complaint. I captured a city and all 8 or 9 of the population were angry saying "stop attacking our mother country and quit oppressing us" So I made them all entertainers. After a few staved to death I sent a settler so that I could feed the jerks. Then my settlers showed up as unhappy also with the same thing "stop attacking our mother country and quit oppressing us." I don't get it. You should be able to send citizens of happy cities to a newly conquered city and have them act as 'carpetbaggers' I am their mother country, just because I move them to a dfferent city, they switch allegiance?

	06-06-2002 19:09									#25
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quote: Originally posted by dubwai I have a variation on this complaint. I captured a city and all 8 or 9 of the population were angry saying "stop attacking our mother country and quit oppressing us" So I made them all entertainers. After a few staved to death I sent a settler so that I could feed the jerks. Then my settlers showed up as unhappy also with the same thing "stop attacking our mother country and quit oppressing us." I don't get it. You should be able to send citizens of happy cities to a newly conquered city and have them act as 'carpetbaggers' I am their mother country, just because I move them to a dfferent city, they switch allegiance?

Good point! I'm with you on this one. I think this area should be a nice improvement for the next patch.

	07-06-2002 08:23									#26
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Similar problem with "assimilation". Even after you've occupied a city for thousands of years and the overwhelming majority of the population is made up of natives of your country, it will almost always begin to riot if you declare war on the mother civ. I had this happen to me- 14 out of 16 citizens in the city were mine, but about 10 of my own citizens became unhappy when I declared war on the civ I'd taken the city from in the distant past. The citizens who were actually native to the mother civ were actually both happy for no particular reason. There definitely needs to be better tracking in regards to what nationality laborers in a city are.

	07-06-2002 20:32									#27
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quote: Originally posted by dubwai I have a variation on this complaint. I captured a city and all 8 or 9 of the population were angry saying "stop attacking our mother country and quit oppressing us" So I made them all entertainers. After a few staved to death I sent a settler so that I could feed the jerks. Then my settlers showed up as unhappy also with the same thing "stop attacking our mother country and quit oppressing us." I don't get it. You should be able to send citizens of happy cities to a newly conquered city and have them act as 'carpetbaggers' I am their mother country, just because I move them to a dfferent city, they switch allegiance?

The citizen faces don't always jive. Sometimes, you'll see an unhappy citizen from your civ and a happy citizen from the civ you just captured the city from. When you click on one of the unhappy citizens and those percentages show up, it represents the proportion of unhappy people unhappy for the given reason.

Say you have 2 unhappy people and the message, "50% It's way too crowded, 50% please stop the aggression against our mother country". This means you have one unhappy citizen from overcrowding and one unhappy citizen from other civ war weariness.