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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
I'm not even sure what you're alluding to, considering most of the "poor" people from neighboring provinces have been coming to Alberta for better job prospects anyway (net migration of 10,000 from BC alone last year). |
I'm talking about people who cannot work, the people who are on welfare because of physical or mental disabilities. The Albertan government cuts welfare payments to these people and then gives them money if they leave the province.
BC and Ontario ends up taking care of these people.
As for Ontario not sharing its wealth, give me a break. For decades, Ontario was carrying the load providing the most money for transfer payments. If that has changed in recent years then it is news to me.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
I'm talking about people who cannot work, the people who are on welfare because of physical or mental disabilities. The Albertan government cuts welfare payments to these people and then gives them money if they leave the province.
BC and Ontario ends up taking care of these people. |
That's quite an ingenius plan. 
Do you have some links for figures on how common this in?
Just a hunch that you're blowing this way out of proportion, and not more than maybe 50-100 people a year do this.
NDPers tend to do that, I've found. You take one person and blow it into a big "the sky is falling" scare.
quote:
As for Ontario not sharing its wealth, give me a break. For decades, Ontario was carrying the load providing the most money for transfer payments. If that has changed in recent years then it is news to me. |
Why don't you look at it as proportion of revenue?
Raw figures for Ontario are incredibly misleading, because of the massive figures it accounts for itself in every area (population, GDP, etc).
Per capita, Alberta puts in far more than any other province, last time I checked.
And do you mind explaining to me why it's unfair to ask other provinces to share their resources and revenue when you ask Alberta to? 
(I wonder why Albertans don't like the NDP line of thought!)
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Did I say it was unfair? What I was objecting to was the Albertan propaganda that only Albertans are asked to cough up for the other provinces. Ontario contributes as does, to a lesser extent, British Columbia. |
Hehe...I believe nye and I were both referring to the NEP policy that the article I cited was hinting at and discussing, not equalization payments today per se.
quote:
The problem with Albertans is that they have a short memory. They forget that there was a time when the rest of the country was helping them. Now that they are rich, the Albertans dump their problems on the rest of the country and then get greedy and refuse to share. |
For FIVE YEARS, back in the late fifties. And it wasn't much, at all. Again, blowing out of proportion. In fact, Ontario changed the equalization payment laws such that Alberta stopped receiving those payments!
quote:
Ontarians, on the other hand, have always been willing to help out the rest of the country. |
Yes, because they don't help out very much at all in reality.
Look at this graph of government revenue per capita. Notice how Ontario is barely above the line? That means you don't give much per person, at all. Notice the huge gap in Alberta's? Figure that out.
This means roughly $2000, PER CAPITA, in Alberta is going to other provinces, and has been for decades. Surely this wouldn't be a problem if Ottawa didn't keep giving Alberta the finger politically. But since they decide to take the money and still treat the province like sh*t, it begins to be annoying.
Now, 10.8B in equalization payments were distributed in 2000 (source: http://cbc.ca/news/indepth/background/equalization.html).
$2000 * 3,000,000 people = $6B in lost Revenue from Alberta.
That means Alberta pays for $6B of the $10.8B total transfer payments.
So how does that figure into Ontario paying the brunt of it, in raw figures *OR* in per capita? IT DOESN'T.
Last edited by Asher on 03-06-2002 at 14:32
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Hehe...I believe nye and I were both referring to the NEP policy that the article I cited was hinting at and discussing, not equalization payments today per se.
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Yes, we're all quite aware that you were talking about the NEP. In any discussion about Canada, Albertans always whine and whine about this 20-year-old policy. Sometimes I think Alberta has a law that requires its residents to whine about the NEP on a daily basis.
Asher: I believe you misunderstand how the equalization system works. The $8,500 per capita figure for Alberta represents how much the Albertan government can raise in taxes. It does not represent contributions to the equalization program.
AFAIK, the equalization program is financed through federal taxes paid by all Canadians. A portion of the federal revenue is then passed on to qualifying provinces in the form of equalization payments.
So to measure contributions to the equalization system, it would be fairer to measure contribution to the federal tax revenues.
In terms of income tax, Ontario residents pay $6,208 per capita while Albertans pay $6,180 per capita. So we pretty much contribute the same amount on a per capita basis.
But looking at the big picture, Ontario pays 44 per cent of federal income tax. If that tax is diverted through equalization payments then Ontario finances $4.7 billion of the payments while Alberta only pays 11 per cent of the equalization payments, just $1.2 billion.
So Ontario does indeed pay the lion share of the equalization payment system.
One difference is that I don't complain about it. I agree with NYE. Some Albertans on the other hand...
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- Groucho -
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
The biggest problems facing economic growth in the Maritimes are the brain drain and the conservative culture in this region. Maritime entreprenuers routinely leave the east for better prospects in Ontario and the west. The conservative culture acts as a break on new ideas. These factors are changing, but remain influencial. |
It seems to me that a brain drain and a culture that acts as a brake on new ideas could adequately be described as a culture of defeatism.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Echinda
It seems to me that a brain drain and a culture that acts as a brake on new ideas could adequately be described as a culture of defeatism. |
One of the points I have tried to made is even if there is a culture of defeatism, a political leader should never say that bluntly. There is a question of tact and political sauve (sp?). Harper could have said something like: "The policies of the Liberals are destroying our hope and optimism. The CA policies announced today will allow the hard-kept hope and entrepreneurial spirit of the Maritime people to flourish. We will remove the barriers that are limit economic growth in the Maritimes."
Pure BS of course, but that is what a great politician does. Look at Ronald Reagan. As much as I hate the guy's policies, I have to give him credit for being able to say the right thing to build up the hope of the American people.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
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The problem is, he didn't necessarily speak the truth. Maritimers tend to be conservative in the sense that they want to keep their existing way of life. That might be foolish, but it doesn't mean they are defeatist.
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- Groucho -
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The amount of emigration from the maritimes seems like pretty good evidence that people feel like they can't win if they stay. It also seems that the prevailing attitude among young maritimers is that generally you have to get out to get ahead (unless you're a ticketed underwater welder or have some other Hibernia-centric skill).
As for whether Harper was politically savvy in making the statement ... Well, I for one would rather politicians said what they thought, rather than, like Reagan, say all the things people want to hear and then run illegal Iran-contra style operations on the side.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
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But if there was a culture of defeatism, wouldn't people just stay put and say what's the point?
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Yes, we're all quite aware that you were talking about the NEP. In any discussion about Canada, Albertans always whine and whine about this 20-year-old policy. Sometimes I think Alberta has a law that requires its residents to whine about the NEP on a daily basis.
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The article was about how Chretien was using the same words that ignited the NEP years ago -- a government HE was a part of.
You're being quite hypocritical if you blame the CA for not knowing what they're saying if you can't figure out why this is a BadThing.
quote:
Asher: I believe you misunderstand how the equalization system works. The $8,500 per capita figure for Alberta represents how much the Albertan government can raise in taxes. It does not represent contributions to the equalization program. |
The way I understood it, and the way the Canadian government explains it on their website, is on average, per capita, Albertans invested $8,500 in tax (much of this is obviously from Alberta's resource revenue, NOT direct income tax like you're trying to slant it to be). In order to make sure that every province has the same government revenue per capita, the average is found and all of the provinces making above that (now only Ontario and Alberta, Alberta by far) are basically giving $2600 per person away to other provinces. Far higher than any other province.
It was a neat trick how to tried to play this on only income tax, when you know a good portion of Alberta's revenue system is not based on income tax but rather resource revenue, which is why that $8500 figure is so high.
quote:
So Ontario does indeed pay the lion share of the equalization payment system. |
The Canadian government's website clearly disagrees with you.
Feel free to find me figures and links that disagree with these...
quote:
One difference is that I don't complain about it. I agree with NYE. Some Albertans on the other hand... |
I do mind sharing. Why should Alberta pay for Newfoundland's eqaulization for 52 years in a row? It's not a temporary measure, it's a constant money hole. Why did we even let Newfoundland in the country, anyway?
quote:
But looking at the big picture, Ontario pays 44 per cent of federal income tax. If that tax is diverted through equalization payments then Ontario finances $4.7 billion of the payments while Alberta only pays 11 per cent of the equalization payments, just $1.2 billion. |
Your figures don't even add up to the total transfer payments paid...
Last edited by Asher on 03-06-2002 at 23:46
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03-06-2002 13:49
Mostly CA.
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