04-06-2002 08:16									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Whatever happened to BC's Premier?

Last I heard he was charged, but not convicted.

EDIT: Or where you talking about the Socred premier?

quote: Originally posted by Asher What a wonderful thing Douglas gave us.

You must be one of the few Canadians who would criticize what Douglas did.

quote: Originally posted by Asher 2) My dad's appendix burst and he had to wait nearly 12 hours WITHOUT PAINKILLER before they could operate. People who have had an appendix burst know how PAINFUL it is. This was in Ontario, before you blame it on Klein.

Once an appendix bursts the pain goes away, but it then becomes fatal unless an operation is done within 24 hours. At least that's what my doctor told me when I had my appendix out. An inflamed appendix (the step before it bursts) is quite painful.

quote: Originally posted by Asher 3) The public healthcare doesn't include dental care. I just coughed up $1500 for wisdom teeth removal. Thankfully my dad's company covers dental insurance...

So you think that public healthcare is a terrible thing and then you complain that it doesn't cover dental costs.

	04-06-2002 08:18									#242
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I've already shown you the figures.

No you haven't. You have confused "fiscal capabilities" with contributions to equalization payments.

The number you need to provide is how much of federal revenues comes from each province.

	04-06-2002 08:21									#243
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Last I heard he was charged, but not convicted. EDIT: Or where you talking about the Socred premier?

Oh, I'm sorry, his conviction is pending so it doesn't matter.

quote: You must be one of the few Canadians who would criticize what Douglas did.

Douglas' idea is fine and good as long as the government can support it.

Canada is proving it cannot, so it's time to reform healthcare instead of dinking around and buying private jets like Chretien is doing.

quote: Once an appendix bursts the pain goes away, but it then becomes fatal unless an operation is done within 24 hours. At least that's what my doctor told me when I had my appendix out. An inflamed appendix (the step before it bursts) is quite painful.

Tell that to the people who have had to suffer a burst appendix. You make it sound like it hurts like a ***** but as soon as it bursts all the pain is gone, then you have a 24 hour stopwatch until the time you die in which you can lounge around in the hospital waiting room watching the game...

quote: So you think that public healthcare is a terrible thing and then you complain that it doesn't cover dental costs.

I never said it was a terrible thing. There you go with the NDP strawmen.

I said the public healthcare in Canada sucks. Mostly because Chretien underfunds it, and it's a complete mess. Instead of allowing people the option of private health care in addition to it (like Germany does), Canada forces you to stick with sub-standard treatment, or you can go to the states.

I'm all for public health care. I think it's a critical service the government provides. I don't see why it's a problem to allow people to opt out and use private if they wish, though. Germany does that and it works perfectly fine.

	04-06-2002 08:23									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai No you haven't. You have confused "fiscal capabilities" with contributions to equalization payments. The number you need to provide is how much of federal revenues comes from each province.

No, Tingkai, that's not how it works.

The federal government skims tons of money off of Alberta's energy revenue for the explicit purpose of putting towards equalization payments. This vast amount of money isn't shown when you just look at GROSS revenues from each province.

You're changing what we're arguing so you can win.

Of course Ontario is going to be providing the most money as a GROSS figure. It's by far the largest province.

When you start looking at net and per capita figures, like what I've been doing this whole time while you still argue gross, Alberta clearly pays far more than any other province.

That much is clear to anyone with basic arithmetic and reading skills.

I find it amazing you keep trying to break this down into a discussion about income tax, as if that's the only source of revenue for equalization payments.

	04-06-2002 08:23									#245
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quote: Oh, I'm sorry, his conviction is pending so it doesn't matter.

Not any more, he got away with... well whatever he did. As Lionel Hutz would say "Case Closed".

	04-06-2002 08:25									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai What is your problem with the numbers I listed. The equalization payments equal about $10.7 billion. If Ontario taxpayers provide 44 per cent of federal income tax revenues then Ontario finances $4.7 billion of the equalization payments (10.7 x 0.44). Albertan taxpayers provides 11 per cent of federal income tax revenues so Albertan taxpayers finance about $1.2 billion of the payments (10.7 x 0.11). The remainder of the transfer payments would come from taxpayers in other provinces.

Something here doesn't make good sense Tingkai; Equalization isn't like any other federal program; it's explicitly designed as a transfer program from "have" areas to "have-not" areas so the entire sum of the transfer must be coming from the "have" provinces, eg Alberta and Ontario (and for a long while BC until the NDP finally managed to turn that around). I think what you're confusing is the notion of 'gross' and 'net' - the $10.7B is a net transfer. This has to be the case because if it wasn't there would be little point to the equalization program (there's little enough point as it is constituted anyway, but I digress).

quote: It is an attempt to ensure that all Canadians receive the same level of services from areas controlled by the provincial governments, e.g. education.

This is something I've never been able to figure out ... if this is the case then why aren't per capita transfers to the provinces for these things equal? The only form of equalizing taking place should be through the equalization program itself. ie suppose each Canadian needs $2000/yr in health services (avg). The feds transfer $1000 per capita to each province. Some provinces can afford the remaining $1000, others can't. Those that can't get the difference through the equalization program. But how it really works is that some provinces get more than $1000 in their health transfer, and correspondingly *less* in their equalization grant, which makes it look like the equalization program is smaller than it really is, thus helping to hide the poor job the feds and those provinces are doing with respect to the economies of those provinces.

	04-06-2002 08:27									#247
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...said the stripper to the bishop.

	04-06-2002 08:27									#248
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Canadians are mean to each other when it comes to politics. You guys should learn to get along with one another.

Nothing unites us faster than when Yanks intrude in matters they don't understand.

	04-06-2002 08:28									#249
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yay, David James, finally someone who makes sense.

	04-06-2002 08:32									#250
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I love how every Can. political thread you're involved with turns into an Albertan whinefest, Asher...

	04-06-2002 08:35									#251
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I love how every Can. political thread turns into an Alberta-bash fest from you and Tingkai.

I don't think either of you really understands how the government works, and the economies behind a lot of it. That would make sense, considering how you back the NDP or liberals.

On the brightside this thread gave me a new sig!

	04-06-2002 08:36									#252
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Don't forget about me, I don't really like Alberta either. It's the Bible Belt of Canada.

	04-06-2002 08:38									#253
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Religion isn't nearly as common here as you might think.

None of my friends, save for a couple Muslims and Sikhs, are religious, for example.

And Hobbes: You don't like Alberta, but you've never lived here. Your dislike is based upon what you've heard, and most of what you've heard is, quite frankly, bullshit.

	04-06-2002 08:39									#254
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quote: I don't think either of you really understands how the government works, and the economies behind a lot of it

For God's sake, what's the obsession with right wingers and their bloody economies?! Where's the love? It's not enough! Just give it up! It's what makes the world go round and round and round!!

	04-06-2002 08:42									#255
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UGH HANSON.

And economics make the world go 'round these days. Welcome to the 21st century.

Step 1: NDPers take power
2: Taxes rise
3: Economy slows down
4. Tax revenues decrease
5. Taxes rise more
6. Economy slows down more
7. Taxes rise more
ad naseum until what you're left with is current-day BC.

I mean, let's face it, the NDP has proven to be clueless time and time again. How about the rent ceilings they put in place while in power?

NO concept of how economics works, which is a major part of being a government.

	04-06-2002 08:42									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Hobbes For God's sake, what's the obsession with right wingers and their bloody economies?! Where's the love? It's not enough! Just give it up! It's what makes the world go round and round and round!!

They have nothing else to base their self-worth on except money, silly. Deprive them of that, they become, in their own eyes, worthless...

	04-06-2002 08:42									#257
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quote: And Hobbes: You don't like Alberta, but you've never lived here. Your dislike is based upon what you've heard, and most of what you've heard is, quite frankly, bullshit.

You can say that if you will, but then I could say what you've been saying about the NDP is bullshit too. You've never lived in an NDP government. It's all a matter of opinion in this case. Not everything I have heard or read or seen is bound to be bullshit. I have been there, you know.

	04-06-2002 08:45									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Hobbes You can say that if you will, but then I could say what you've been saying about the NDP is bullshit too. You've never lived in an NDP government. It's all a matter of opinion in this case. Not everything I have heard or read or seen is bound to be bullshit. I have been there, you know.

I don't need to live in an NDP government.

It's quite obvious from the outside what's wrong with it.

You can make excuses for the pathetic state BC is in compared to the rest of Canada, but they're just excuses.

Name one thing that BC does better than Alberta.

	04-06-2002 08:47									#259
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quote: Originally posted by Hobbes For God's sake, what's the obsession with right wingers and their bloody economies?! Where's the love? It's not enough! Just give it up! It's what makes the world go round and round and round!!

What world are you living on? It's gravity and momentum that makes the world go round. Sheesh.

Economics explains so much. That must be why leftists don't like it

In my population and economics class, the professor even delved into the subject of the economics of marriage

	04-06-2002 08:49									#260
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quote: Name one thing that BC does better than Alberta.

Cut down trees.

quote: It's quite obvious from the outside what's wrong with it.

Well, I believe the same to be with Alberta, but of COURSE my assumptions are automatically bullshit.

	04-06-2002 08:50									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Name one thing that BC does better than Alberta.

I'm surprised at you Asher. I mean, it's so obvious; BC is far better at electing NDP governments than Alberta

	04-06-2002 08:50									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Hobbes Well, I believe the same to be with Alberta, but of COURSE my assumptions are automatically bullshit.

What's wrong with Alberta?

Is it because we had the highest math marks out of the nation last year?
Or perhaps the highest average income combined with lowest taxes?

Or is it the title of "Cleanest City in the World" awarded to Calgary?

	04-06-2002 08:51									#263
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quote: Economics explains so much.

Sure, but should that be the rating scale for a good government?

	04-06-2002 08:52									#264
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Without a good economy a government doesn't have a good revenue stream.

Without a good revenue stream you can't fund your social programs you like.

Economics are a HUGE part of a rating scale for a good government. Without economics, there's no money for all of your arts grants.

	04-06-2002 08:58									#265
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What you won't admit Asher is that Albertan government have had it easy because they get massive oil revenues. That's why you don't have a sales tax in Alberta. Take away the oil revenues and the Albertan tories would act just like conservatives everywhere. In other words, the conservatives would:
1) Talk about small government while increasing the size of government;
2) Talk about fiscal responsibilities while handing out massive corporate welfare;
3) Talk about cutting taxes while introducing new taxes;
4) Talk about responsible government while the conservative politicians are being convicted of corruption and murder; and
5) Talk about cutting government spending while putting the country into debt.

	04-06-2002 08:58									#266
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quote: What's wrong with Alberta?

To be very stereotypical: rednecks. And lots of 'em



Okay, economy is good.

	04-06-2002 08:59									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Asher When you start looking at net and per capita figures, like what I've been doing this whole time while you still argue gross, Alberta clearly pays far more than any other province.

Provide the numbers. You haven't so far. All you have done is talk.

I have provide total revenue numbers and per capita numbers.

Show me the numbers.

	04-06-2002 08:59									#268
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Oh, and they use religion to play the 'oh poor me, Ontario is descriminating because we are God fearing people'

	04-06-2002 09:00									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Hobbes To be very stereotypical: rednecks. And lots of 'em

Yeah, and that is a very, very false assumption.

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai What you won't admit Asher is that Albertan government have had it easy because they get massive oil revenues. That's why you don't have a sales tax in Alberta.

That's not even what we've been talking about. Of course Alberta gets a big boost from the oil revenues. Does that make us any less valid as people?

quote: 1) Talk about small government while increasing the size of government; 2) Talk about fiscal responsibilities while handing out massive corporate welfare; 3) Talk about cutting taxes while introducing new taxes; 4) Talk about responsible government while the conservative politicians are being convicted of corruption and murder; and 5) Talk about cutting government spending while putting the country into debt.

Very poor troll. 0.3/10.

	04-06-2002 09:01									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Hobbes quote: Economics explains so much. Sure, but should that be the rating scale for a good government?

I don't follow ... that answer was in response to why we right wing nutcases [blush] like economics so much.

But yes, economics should be used as a rating scale for good government. The question of whether or not people are made better off or not as a result of government policy is mainly an economic question. If people are not made better off by such policy then there is little, if any, justification for it.