03-06-2002 20:28									#1
	Would this make the scientific trait more useful? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

While playing a game and upgrading my units yet another time after discovering better tech, I had an idea. Since alot think the scientific trait is kinda uselss, 3 free advances and less costly science structures, how about adding upgrading units at half cost? Since they're scientific they'd adapt to new technology more quickly, and it'd be a definite value to players then. Anyway, tell me what you guys think. I'd have posted this in general btw, but since major changes probably aren't gonna happen through patches, I decided to put it here in hopes for XP.

	03-06-2002 20:38									#2
	Re: Would this make the scientific trait more useful? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by ChaotikVisions Since alot think the scientific trait is kinda uselss, 3 free advances and less costly science structures,

The scientific trait is one of the two most useful (with religious) in the game. Making it more powerful would really make other traits, ala expansionist, unattractive. I don't know about anybody else, but I'll take three freebie advances any day of the week.

	03-06-2002 20:52									#3
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I agree with Carver that Scientific is quite useful as it is. And in any case, 50% less to upgrade cost is too powerful. It's a free benefit of a Wonder (!), and something that is there for the enitre game. I'll build lots of Warriors, get Iron Working, upgrade all to Swordsmen for really little money...hm... too powerful.

	03-06-2002 20:54									#4
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Industrial and religious are overpowered. (industrial for the worker effectivity and religious for one turn revolutions and cheap temples) I always have to move down one difficulty level when i play a non-industrous civ.

If you make religious and industrous weaker the other traits will be well balanced.

	03-06-2002 20:56									#5
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Hmm, I hadn't noticed much of a bonus using scientific, the main trait I usually aim for is industrious. I just like being able to get my continent set up quickly. But I guess half cost would be too powerful, it just seemed like 3 advances was a bit small.

	04-06-2002 01:01									#6
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expansionist is the only trait that needs work IMHO

	04-06-2002 01:04									#7
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quote: Originally posted by statusperfect Industrial and religious are overpowered. (industrial for the worker effectivity and religious for one turn revolutions and cheap temples) I always have to move down one difficulty level when i play a non-industrous civ.

I disagree with these traits being overpowered. It seems like you have found a good way to play with the Japanese(?). I think all the traits are fine the way they are. Remember, other players may perform better with other traits.

I like the Scientific trait as is. It gives you 3 free techs (Nationalism without any research is a big plus), and half price buildings (remember, libraries, universities, research labs also contribute to culture).

If you have to turn the difficulty down with other traits, that just means you haven't used them to your advantage properly. Each civ plays differently. Religious civs can change governments easier, militaristic civs get more leaders on average, industrious civs build roads and such faster, expansionist civs get more and better goodie huts, commercial civs get trade bonuses (cheaper airports & harbors). Then there's the UUs for each civ, a whole other ballgame.

	04-06-2002 01:44									#8
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Half priced upgrades are way too powerful. Germans would be invincible if you so this. I think scientific is pretty solid, in terms of culture esp. Plus, many wonders are scientific, and it's easy to get a peaceful golden age. I don't know if you often play with unscientific Civs, but it's horrible to build universities with them, and libraries take too much time too IMO.
Industrious is not that overpowered (granted, I only play industrious Civs ) : when you're not industrious, you just have to produce twice more workers, which isn't that problematic once you have a steady population growth.
Religious rules, tat's a given. Luckily, the Egyptian UU sucks, they'd be horribly powerful otherwise.

Dunk999 :
Commercial is good (reduces corruption, and gives extra money on cities/metropolises), but not as great as you think : commercial buildings are not twice cheaper.

	04-06-2002 02:17									#9
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Religeous +++++
Industrious ++
Scientific ++++

Use a lot of free captured workers, fer crist's sake.

	04-06-2002 03:38									#10
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Commercial is on the verge of useless. It needs complete re-tooling. Scientific is decent, IMO. If I had to order the traits based on overall usefulness (ie. no specific maps, like huge pangaea, 60%, for expansionist), I would say:
Religious
Industrious
Scientific+Militaristic
Expansionistic
Commercial

	04-06-2002 04:22									#11
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I'd put Scientific above Religious. Religious only really shines when it comes to revolutions. I only change governments twice a game as it is (Depotism - Republic - Democracy). I don't start wars, and am always defensive, so democracy's war weariness rarely effects me.

Industrial is the best in the game, period. uber-workers are very very important. Then Scientific.

Expansionist is only useful in the beginning of the game. And it's VERY useful then too. Can make the difference of winning, or being trapped on a peninsula.

	04-06-2002 04:24									#12
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I would say religious shines with half price temples and cathedrals. I find them generally more useful than libraries and universities.

	04-06-2002 04:48									#13
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Religious is probably the best overall trait, but I see nothing wrong with scientific, cheap libraries and Unis plus a free tech. Commericial is a little weak, giving them cheaper marketplaces and banks would go a long way to making them about as good as any. In fact, I'm a little mystified why this wasn't done in the beginning.
Expansionist is the only trait that needs a LOT of work IMHO. What a lot of mods have done, and what I reccemending doing is giving them a "pioneer" unit that functions essentially as a settler but costs 20 shields instead of 30 and can move 2. If Firaxis does this in the XP, expansionist civs would be on about an equal footing with the rest of the civs.

	04-06-2002 05:19									#14
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IMO, the problem with augmenting Expansionistic civs is that on a Huge, Pangaea, 60% water map, expansionistic is already too powerful. On that kind of map, you kind easily find yourself in the middle ages by 1000AD, without trading. Any benefits given to expansionistic civs would make it completely overwhelming as a civ trait. Can you imagine the Iroquois in that situation with 20 shield settlers? Religious is generally regarded to be a solid trait, expansionistic in that situations is insane, MWs are among the best UUs and 2/3 price settlers on top? Why even play the game? Just declare yourself the winner!

	04-06-2002 05:23									#15
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I happen to like scientific... cheap libraries are great.

On another note, exactly how much does commercial actually do for corruption? It seems like anything battling corruption would be great, but what is the actual factor?

	04-06-2002 05:37									#16
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Industrious, Expansionst are the best traits. You can send your scouts all over the place and get a head start on techs. (granted that you don't start on an island) Industrious is good because it means you can build more roads faster, so you can connect your cities to luxeries/ resources faster and can move your units faster from place to place

	04-06-2002 06:36									#17
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Actually I feel that to make expansionist truly equal to the other traits, it might be good to have one or more of the following abilities:
all units get +1 mp
all exploration and settlement units are 1/2 price.
all improvements which speed population growth are 1/2 price
all units treat enemy roads and RR's as friendly
all units ignore terrain effects on movement

Obviously giving the expansionist trait ALL these characteristics would be unrealistic, but a couple of them, or one of the most powerful ones (like the last one) would go a long way to bringing expansionist civs up to par!
Anyway, just a thought!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	04-06-2002 06:40									#18
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Good thoughts Lurker, I think that Expansionist does need a lot of work. Hopefully it will be addressed in the XP. The absolute main problem I have with it is once the game's intial turns are passed, you have nothing else to look forward to!

	04-06-2002 07:00									#19
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quote: all units get +1 mp all exploration and settlement units are 1/2 price. all improvements which speed population growth are 1/2 price all units treat enemy roads and RR's as friendly all units ignore terrain effects on movement

The problem with number one is that then all of your units could retreat against units of the same age, which means that you would be invincible. (Yesss!! I am Invincible!)
Point 2 seems interesting because it is a characterist of expansionist civs to have many explorers/scouts and to found cities everywhere. 1/2 off settlers would be ok as long as its 1/2 its shield cost and not its pop cost.
Point 3,4 doesnt seem like an expansionist sorta thing. Dont know why
I think point 5 would be too unbalancing. Its too good.

	04-06-2002 07:16									#20
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 I happen to like scientific... cheap libraries are great. On another note, exactly how much does commercial actually do for corruption? It seems like anything battling corruption would be great, but what is the actual factor?

It increases your optimal number of cities by one (read: it does nothing). That's why I said it was on the verge of useless. I think it's funny how people have often gone on about how great it is with a Commercial civ, how they can have huge empire now and those outer cities produce more than one shield, etc. Alexman's study proved it does next to nothing for corruption, which just goes to show you how easily can find what they're looking for.

	04-06-2002 19:30									#21
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Commercial is good on smaller maps where an additional number to the Optimal Cities is a bigger deal.

	04-06-2002 20:24									#22
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quote: Commercial is good on smaller maps where an additional number to the Optimal Cities is a bigger deal.

That does not make it more blanced. It's just another thing that should be changed. It should be relative to map size or maybe a % of you cities.

	05-06-2002 03:45									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The best part of Commercial in my opinion is the starting tech: Alphabet is one of the most expensive baseline techs and gives you a wicked head start on the lucrative Writing branch. That's really its biggest advantage, and unfortunately that's not much; expansionist, for example, will on average net you most baseline techs pretty quickly (this is an average, mind you; if you're stuck on an island it won't do much at all, but if you've got a nice huge landmass with sparse competition it will often earn you the entire ancient era for free). Still, I think half price marketplaces/banks might be a bit much, especially if harbors and airports were added to that list as they likely would be; half price courthouses would be pretty balanced in my opinion, although it wouldn't be as intuitive.