10-03-2003 19:17									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Manya pre-emptive attacks are the only way, i generally stuck lot's of swordsmen right next to all of their border cities and surprise attack them i'm such a coward

Me too...

...but I notice that pre-emptive attacks generally eat up my troops more than declared attacks. I.e., if I break a treaty to attack a city I'm right next to, I might lose a swordsman or two, whereas, if I declared war and moved in, I might not lose any.

I assume this has something to do with troop morale... Can someone shed some light on this subject?

	10-03-2003 19:19									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Right, theoretically we could take a civ out in one campaign. But we won't want to hurt that civ too much that early, will we? We want them to stay halfway competitive with the other AIs to buy/research more techs for us and build a couple more cities for the next raid 20 turns later. Remember, oscillating wars.

It's also always pick at your prey, take half their empire early on, and then give them a paltry tech after a while to declar war on each other! Dividing and Conquering is trickier in Civ than in real life, but it's still the best tactic there is, IMO.

	10-03-2003 20:38									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Right, theoretically we could take a civ out in one campaign. But we won't want to hurt that civ too much that early, will we? We want them to stay halfway competitive with the other AIs to buy/research more techs for us and build a couple more cities for the next raid 20 turns later. Remember, oscillating wars.

It's a balancing act. Do I take more cities to make my empire stronger while sacrificing the easy tech trading laddder my enemies help me with, or do I let them hang around strong so that I can stay equal with the civs on the other continent till I make contact with them.

Wipe 'em out, or buy tech. always a tough choice, but I prefer wipe 'em out.

	10-03-2003 20:48									#64
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Yes, remember: Wipe Them Out means more land and cities, which means more trade, which means more tech per turn. Crippled AIs means you can BUY techs, and most likely they're all researching the same tech at the same time, so it's hardly an advantage... (IMO)

	18-03-2003 19:43									#65
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Sir Ralph,

Very interesting as usual. I have just a question: with all your cities committed to building military, settlers (and maybe some worker?), when do you plan do build some Wonder, beside the standard answer 'let the others build it and just capture it'.

	19-03-2003 06:29									#66
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I usually don't build ancient wonders, plain and simple.

By the way, I could build some of them despite the military buildup. What I described above, is a matter of a couple of turns, let's say about 30 turns. The other 30 turns I did just the same I would have done in other games without an archer rush: building settlers and some barracks. In this time, I usually didn't get to, say, Literature, to build one of the best ancient wonders. I can start it after the archers are on their way. What I most likely will miss, are the Pyramids. But I can live without them.

	19-03-2003 20:06									#67
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I understand...
I am correct in assuming you play on standard maps and Pangea?
Playing the French on Huge maps changes lots of things.
I just started a new game and tried your early archer rush with 4 cities+barracks against the English (got 3 cities). By the time I switched to the Great Library (and I have only to research Writing and Literature) I lost it to the Iroquois.
Then I re-run the game without the archer rush. The difference was 6 more cities built+GL+some temples+the Great Lighthouse 10 turns away.
But I would definitely use the archer rush if I were blocked on a peninsula as the English are...

	19-03-2003 20:15									#68
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It's true, on a huge map, the archer rush can set you back a bit. You have to be confident that your neighbors are struggling: it's effective if your intended victim are the ones who are building the GL! Otherwise, better to wait 'til mounted warfare... IMHO.

	20-03-2003 04:24									#69
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Hmmm, that sounds about right. The larger the map, the longer it takes for REXing to end, the farther away the AI will be, the longer it takes to attack with archers, the less effective archer rushes become.

But I will say one thing is that even with the same map, every civ game is not the same. Maybe the Iroquios got into a war or didn't trade early enough for literature, or... you get the point. Just look at any AU spoiler thread, and you will see differences in what happens with the AI, esp when you look on the other continent. Sometimes one of them gets wiped out (see Russia in AU206) sometimes they're still around. The RNG takes care of that.

	20-03-2003 16:57									#70
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YS,

You call 6 cities and the GLibrary 'a bit'?
If you are in a good position (plenty of free land), I prefer to build those 6 cities, put 2 of them building Wonder/Palace-Wonder and still have 4 'operating' ones. Then, if I have to, I go to war with Horsemen.
Again, huge maps give you more flexible tactics. IMHO

	20-03-2003 19:53									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage YS, You call 6 cities and the GLibrary 'a bit'? If you are in a good position (plenty of free land), I prefer to build those 6 cities, put 2 of them building Wonder/Palace-Wonder and still have 4 'operating' ones. Then, if I have to, I go to war with Horsemen. Again, huge maps give you more flexible tactics. IMHO

Yes. I've found that unless you're playing as a militaristic or industrious civ, it's better to have 10+ cities before beginning a horsemen or swordsmen war. Your capital and second-best city can be building GL and HG (my preferred choices, but substitute all you want), while the rest switch off between building military units as needed, and improvements.

I found I can generally take anywhere from 30% to the entirety of any nearby civ, under these settings. I'm currently playing as the Spanish, and have about 15 cities. The English, with a similarly sized empire, just attacked me. I do not currently field any horsemen and have no barracks. But in about ten turns I'll have both, and I'll be able to take at least a few cities. Depending on my success, I'll take all of merry old England, but I might settle for just setting back their progress, making them intimidated of me, and getting a few cities from which I can launch a total annexation when I get chivalry.

I shoulda brought a screenshot.

	21-03-2003 07:40									#72
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An Archer rush on a huge map? Fu-git-about-it! THe only time an archer rush is useful on a huge map is if you happen to get a civ that starts off within 10 tiles from your civ. I've pulled off the archer rush a total of 1 time on a huge map and I have played about 100 games total on a huge map (the one time it did happen I was playing with 24 civ's)

	21-03-2003 07:47									#73
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Actually, on Emperor and Deity rushes work better on huge maps. The AI's free units are more spread out and they focus on building settlers for a long time.

	21-03-2003 07:56									#74
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quote: Originally posted by DaveMcW Actually, on Emperor and Deity rushes work better on huge maps. The AI's free units are more spread out and they focus on building settlers for a long time.

Yes, rushes work better on huge maps but not Archer rushes. By the time your archers find the civ you want to hit, the AI will be producing Pikemen.

	21-03-2003 13:57									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage I understand... I am correct in assuming you play on standard maps and Pangea? Playing the French on Huge maps changes lots of things. I just started a new game and tried your early archer rush with 4 cities+barracks against the English (got 3 cities). By the time I switched to the Great Library (and I have only to research Writing and Literature) I lost it to the Iroquois. Then I re-run the game without the archer rush. The difference was 6 more cities built+GL+some temples+the Great Lighthouse 10 turns away. But I would definitely use the archer rush if I were blocked on a peninsula as the English are...

I often play huge maps. Actually, one of my best games was an emperor game with the French on a huge/continents map. I have mentioned often, so people who already read about it, please forgive me to repeat this story.

The map had 3 continent of roughly even size, with a distribution of 5, 5 and 6 civs. I was on the smallest (not by much) continent, together with the Russians, English, Germans (all 3 typical French neighbors) and Egyptians. I succeeded to warrior rush the Russians to my south, effectively setting them back to a no-threat, but in the Egyptians to my north outrexed me quickly.

The Archer rush I started somewhere around 1500BC on the Egyptians, worked extremely well. It gave me some air to breathe in the north, and pushed the Egyptians back. After I made peace, I left my army in the north, but directed my reinforcing stream of Archers and Spearmen to the south, to prune Russia again. Meanwhile, my northern army healed and did some work to block the German and Egyptian armies to finish off England, which was the weakest civ of all. After 20 turns, I pruned Egypt again, this time with a little horseman help.

Later in the game I finished Russia (with Knights), Egypt (with Cavalry) and Germany (with Inf/Arty and later Tanks). I got some footholds (esp. luxury colonies) on the other continents too. I build every single medieval (except Sun Tzu's and Leo's), industrial and modern wonder without any leader and won the game by space race with the other civs barely having entered the modern age.

All in all, archer rushes are well possible on huge maps, better even than on standard/continents, because you usually have more neighbors (5-8 as opposed to 3 or 4). You have just to take in account, that the roads are longer. To be industrious, and to build some intelligent supply lines (without or with well-distributed river crossings) helps a lot.

	21-03-2003 17:34									#76
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Sir Ralph,

Tanks for your input. Now I begin to see the differences of playing... 1 continent with 5 Civs= small Pangea, therefore an Archer rush. Makes perfect sense.
I usually play on archipelagos, so unless you give your Archers some swimming suits...
But then again, since the first Tech I research is map Making, why not build the Archers, then crash-build the Galleys?.
The main problem I have is that (too) often I'm perfectly happy with my island. With a C-T-T-C disposition, I cram more cities than the AI and therefore I get a better output. Then I build a strong fleet +later aircraft (not if I can avoid it) and play the PP (Perfect Peacenik).

One question: how do you cope with the military expenses vs. gold vs. Tech research ? Once you have Republic and a 40-50 military (for the next war) plus one new city improvement I usually can't make money enough to research in 4-5 turns. Last time I disbanded my 40+ Horsemen once I conquered the Egyptians (at least I got those temples and barracks started!), stayed without a military for 30 turns and built improvements like crazy, then I re-created an army of Knights to go for the Germans. Not the best way, I suppose...

	21-03-2003 18:57									#77
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The more neighbors the merrier in terms of archer rushes... I mean, after all, those little buggers can't get too far, now can they?

One bit of advice I've noticed for archer rushing on a huge map: if you take someone on early, try to wipe them out. Otherwise, if there's another neighbor you want to "prune," you may find the discontent broiling in your empire at an unhealthy level. It's very satisfying to take the bulk of, say, 3 neighbors, but it's quite unsatisfying to then find yourself making advances every 14 turns instead of every 8, with a deficit, and chronic unrest.

	21-03-2003 23:36									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage One question: how do you cope with the military expenses vs. gold vs. Tech research ? Once you have Republic and a 40-50 military (for the next war) plus one new city improvement I usually can't make money enough to research in 4-5 turns. Last time I disbanded my 40+ Horsemen once I conquered the Egyptians (at least I got those temples and barracks started!), stayed without a military for 30 turns and built improvements like crazy, then I re-created an army of Knights to go for the Germans. Not the best way, I suppose...

Well, that's not exactly the question for an archer rush thread, because I the time I get a Republic is usually about 40-60 turns after the time of the archer attacks.

My approach is: Use the time from 2000BC to approx. 10BC to prune your neighbors, one by one. Stay in Despotism. Don't wipe them out (yes, Yahweh), unless they stop to give you something useful. The first round of pruning gives you the richest prey. Maps, techs, gold, cities. While you go for the next neighbor, your former target will build 2 or 3 new cities for you, which you can capture or extort in the next round. If you wiped the civ out, you'd have to build the settlers yourselves. Depending on map size and civ distribution, you'll make about 2 or 3 "rounds" of pruning. Each war 5-10 turns. After you get the appropriate techs and resources, reinforce your armies with swordsmen and horsemen.

During this pruning, you still are in Despotism and upkeep ain't an issue. After you finished, you are by far the biggest civ. Now, after switching to Republic, you can disband all obsolete military units. This are your remaining archers (longbowmen are usually not worth the upkeep) and all remaining regulars. If you still have too many units, disband swordsmen. Don't disband horsemen, unless you have far too many. They have with knights and cavalry 2 good upgrades to go, while swordsmen have only the mediocre medieval infantry and the largely useless guerillas.

EDIT: One more hint: Don't disband elites, even archers! I've made leaders with them by finishing off wounded units till the industrial age.

	22-03-2003 00:01									#79
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quote: EDIT: One more hint: Don't disband elites, even archers! I've made leaders with them by finishing off wounded units till the industrial age.

Absolutely. I'd go farther and say don't upgrade elites. I've gotten leaders from elite horsemen fighting alongside Cavalry. The AI often fields its old, obselete units in battle, so you can use your old, obselete (but elite!) units to kill them.

-Arrian

	22-03-2003 01:08									#80
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Maybe you all could shed some light on how to avoid the crippling economic effects of continuously launching war.

I'm all in favor of pruning if your neighbors have something to give you. Otherwise, I want to wipe them out before they can sell what they might develop to a friendlier civ...

But Sir Ralph, if you could teach me someway to avoid the chronic discontent and huge deficits while still launching continuous, small-scale wars, I'd be more than happy to change my all-or-almost-all-or-nothing strategy.

	22-03-2003 04:50									#81
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Republic, luxuries, and marketplaces. Happiness GWs, as well, obviously, but given enough luxuries I can stay at war almost continuously (on Emperor).

	22-03-2003 05:22									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Maybe you all could shed some light on how to avoid the crippling economic effects of continuously launching war. I'm all in favor of pruning if your neighbors have something to give you. Otherwise, I want to wipe them out before they can sell what they might develop to a friendlier civ... But Sir Ralph, if you could teach me someway to avoid the chronic discontent and huge deficits while still launching continuous, small-scale wars, I'd be more than happy to change my all-or-almost-all-or-nothing strategy.

In the early age if I am continuously at war I pump up my happiness to about 20%, usually that is enough, I drop tech to 0% and simply buy or extort all techs I am not getting.

Get JS Bachs Cathedral, helps wonders. (hmm... pun )

I usually try to avoid messy wars with everyone and instead concentrate my strenght against one neighbor and wipe him out completely.

My latest game is remarkably similar to Sir Ralph's: France, huge, emperor. I started on the largest continent, flanked by the Germans on the south, the Brits to the north and the Persians north of England but with various settlements in my borders. Germany's territory was huge, they soon became the dominant power. Germany actually started very far so I did not consider Archer-rushing them, it would have been impossible. England was a target but I decided to halt their REXing since they were sandwitched even worse than me. Didn't really work, I was small but consolidated. When I got horses, I started building horsemen like crazy, not with the intention of using them, but to upgrade them to Knights. Once this happened, I went to war with Germany, took 30+ cities and wiped them out. I've been the dominant civ since then.

I also got a huge amount of luxuries which further helps the war machine.

If anyone wants the last .sav (I haven't finished the game actually) I'll gladly post it



MZ

	22-03-2003 15:04									#83
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Yahweh: As Theseus and Master Zen already pointed out,

- Luxuries, the more the better, at least 3 on monarch, 4 on emperor
- Marketplaces, Temples, Cathedrals, may be Colosseums
- Happiness wonders like the Sistine, although in large empires Bach's is even better, because you probably won't build a Cathedral in some marginal cities
- In the time you are acquiring and building the above, use the luxury slider

	22-03-2003 15:27									#84
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quote: huge maps take too long...though interesing, I prefer shorter games.

Try playing huge maps with 800Mhz/128Mt RAM.

	22-03-2003 15:29									#85
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quote: One more hint: Don't disband elites, even archers! I've made leaders with them by finishing off wounded units till the industrial age.

Thank You, with capital letters. I've always upgraded my elites, will try this in next games

	22-03-2003 15:46									#86
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Why, it actually... works?

	23-03-2003 00:25									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu Try playing huge maps with 800Mhz/128Mt RAM.

It's not the machine...okay maybe it is the machine, but I've learned that I can play an entire small map game in one 8-10 hour day whereas if I play a huge map...it just takes too long for enjoyment.

I don't like the downtime between playing civ where all I do is think about my next moves.

	24-03-2003 16:45									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber An Archer rush on a huge map? Fu-git-about-it!

Well, to contradict you. But I just did an Archer rush on AU207 with my French. Poor Babylonians

Sir Ralph, thanks again for your input.

Unfortunately, I also had to destroy the Zulus later on. And I wanted to play the PP (Perfect Peacenik)

I thought I was Arrian's Gimini Cricket
But between him, Sir Ralph and all the others...

This evening, instead of playing Civ, I'll watch the last episode of 'Gimini Cricket goes downhill...'

	24-03-2003 20:05									#89
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Well, I'm sorry, but my real question still hasn't been answered.

I know that building marketplaces, cathedrals, etc., are the key to offsetting unhappiness... luxuries are key, of course...

...but by the time I'm building CATHEDRALS, I've got something better to rush my neighbors with than archers!!!

The "crippling economic state" I was referring to was what seemed to me to be an unnaturally high level of discontent, even WITH marketplaces and tons of luxuries hooked up, or colosseums, etc.

I never have this problem if I wait until Chivalry (or maybe used MW or GS or a like unit) to take my neighbors out, one at a time, and entirely.

I was referring to the "pruning" process, specially with archers. After so much pruning, even HEAVY pruning, I can often end up with a miserable populace.

I can only assume that this has to do with breaking treaties, going to war with a 20-turn interval, or something related. But maybe someone can elucidate me?

	24-03-2003 20:35									#90
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Perhaps we didn't understand what you mean. We thought you were referring to war weariness. What "discontent" are you talking about? Your economy? Or the attitude of the others towards you? And what, by your definition, is a miserable populace?