06-06-2002 15:43									#61
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sir ralph, jeff is not a pr manager, he is a producer

and if reality pisses you off, i'm sorry, but we live in a capatilistic where companies make games and where the best way to show your disatisfaction of a company's product is to not buy any more products from that company. that's all there is to it

	06-06-2002 15:54									#62
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Sorry about my ignorance about the positions of the Firaxians, I didn't want to disrate anyone, but...

I have worked as office manager before in a company with a staff similar to Firaxis. My job was to work with customers. Not my strength, I admit. But if I ever said to a customer, "we basically produce what we want and if you don't like it, just don't buy it; thanks for your pay check though" (my translation), I would have gotten fired instantly.

	06-06-2002 16:08									#63
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quote: my translation

exactly that. that is your translation. and i'm sorry to say it, but it is a bad one cause that's not at all what jeff meant

	06-06-2002 16:15									#64
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: my translation exactly that. that is your translation. and i'm sorry to say it, but it is a bad one cause that's not at all what jeff meant

And if it WAS what he meant, he'd have said it so we couldn't figure that out.

	06-06-2002 16:24									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

yeah, with dan we're puting together a package, to offer companies a developerspeak-to-english translation service

btw, last night was the result of our special free-beers-with-use-of-chat-room offer to game companies. worked, huh?

	06-06-2002 16:34									#66
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at Mark.

Nice.

	06-06-2002 16:37									#67
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG yeah, with dan we're puting together a package, to offer companies a developerspeak-to-english translation service

Good service

What will "no comment" be translated with?

	06-06-2002 16:43									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph What will "no comment" be translated with?

Wait for the patch.

	06-06-2002 17:18									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS Guys, ... The only real power you have as consumers is to either buy or not buy the game. A 'dear john' mumble here just can't compete with the ‘love letter’ you wrote to us in our royalty checks. Jeff

Sorry, but semantic analysis is one of my professional skills and the above does seem to be fairly closely equivalent to ...

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph we basically produce what we want and if you don't like it, just don't buy it; thanks for your pay check though

certainly sufficiently close to make your attack look strangely partisan, Markos.

Personally I could not care less - Civ III was IMHO a cynical rip-off and I have taken my bat and ball (read wallet) and gone home.

SG[1]

	06-06-2002 17:39									#70
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perhaps your personal opinion on civ3 messes up your professional skills SG[1]

btw, what attack? i dont think sir ralph felt attacked by my posts...

	06-06-2002 18:12									#71
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The power you have is to buy or not to buy. However, your opinion on the game might have impact on others. You can probably make a friend to think that a game, of which he knows nothing about, is good, and you can also make him think it is bad. All you have to do is to convince him that you know what you are talking about.

However, on this site most people already have their opinion, and it is mush harder to change an opinion then it is to create a new opinion. The result of trying to affect people with a strong opinion of something can either be that you make them move slightly towards your opinion, or that they think your opinion is so wrong that they will get more stuck to their own. Whatever the case is the effect is small.

Also a company can't create a game as one person wants it. They need to make it in a way that as many people as possible are willing to pay for it.

	06-06-2002 18:32									#72
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG btw, what attack? i dont think sir ralph felt attacked by my posts...

No, of course. And I appreciate the possibility to say my opinion and respect the opinion of others, as long as they are posted in a civilized way. I also meant no offense to Mr. Morris, I just expressed my displeasure with his mentioned statement. Reading this thread, I can see, that it scored not very high in both camps, "critics" as well as "fanboys".

	06-06-2002 22:21									#73
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: You're supposed to be here being pleasant to us giving us reassurance about the people behind the product. and i thought developers' job was to.... develop. i now realize their actual job is babysitting fans

Right on Markos. Everybodys says they hate hype and bull. But when they get a straight answer they acted like scared little kittens. And than...to start whining about PR... (The whole "Yin concept" of craving recongnition and hand-holding from the gamning companies.) Oh...gosh the company said something mean to ME! I'm gonna cry and not buy their product! And throw my rattle! BLAAAAA! GRRRR!

	06-06-2002 22:25									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I'm usually not among of those, who rant at Firaxis, but this one has p*ssed me royally. What a PR disaster! Comes right next to the way Infogrames acts. While I highly appreciate Sorens and Mikes work, I am shocked about this arrogant way to deal with customers. And yes, I will try to show my displeasure in the way Mr. Morris obviously appreciates. And Mark: No, the developers should not be babysitting fans. But their PR manager also should not try to p*ss them off.

Oh....geez. Argue about the package not the wrapper. (Think about it...)

	06-06-2002 22:34									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Sorry about my ignorance about the positions of the Firaxians, I didn't want to disrate anyone, but... I have worked as office manager before in a company with a staff similar to Firaxis. My job was to work with customers. Not my strength, I admit. But if I ever said to a customer, "we basically produce what we want and if you don't like it, just don't buy it; thanks for your pay check though" (my translation), I would have gotten fired instantly.

Get off the high horse. Who cares if he does feel that way. The key issue is how good a job he does at making games. Playing PR mommie to sensativfe types is a waste of his energy. Developers should concentrate on their craft...not on making you feel "loved"...

Lots of companies can occasionally benefit from concentrating on production work and not on appeasing hard-to-please customers...

What really pisses you off is that Jeff had the balls to tell the truth...

	06-06-2002 22:36									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos The power you have is to buy or not to buy. However, your opinion on the game might have impact on others. You can probably make a friend to think that a game, of which he knows nothing about, is good, and you can also make him think it is bad. All you have to do is to convince him that you know what you are talking about. However, on this site most people already have their opinion, and it is mush harder to change an opinion then it is to create a new opinion. The result of trying to affect people with a strong opinion of something can either be that you make them move slightly towards your opinion, or that they think your opinion is so wrong that they will get more stuck to their own. Whatever the case is the effect is small. Also a company can't create a game as one person wants it. They need to make it in a way that as many people as possible are willing to pay for it.

Very nicely stated. I doubt it will penetrate certain ears, though. For the reasons you've so aptly stated...

	07-06-2002 01:48									#77
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GP,

quote: Right on Markos. Everybodys says they hate hype and bull. But when they get a straight answer they acted like scared little kittens. And than...to start whining about PR... (The whole "Yin concept" of craving recongnition and hand-holding from the gamning companies.) Oh...gosh the company said something mean to ME! I'm gonna cry and not buy their product! And throw my rattle! BLAAAAA! GRRRR!

So you disagree with the comment I made? Does that mean you don't think companies should be appreciative towards their customers? I personally don't find it neccessary for Firaxis to come here and post. However, I do find it neccessary for Firaxis to whole heartedly show their appreciation towards all of the their customers. It's a matter of communication, and the route Jeff was taking was not a pretty one.

Mark,

quote: isnt it amazing how people understand whatever they would like to understand?

And you wouldn't know anything about that would you?

quote: the key word in the sentense you quoted is "repeatedly". let me bold that: repeatedly

That seems irrelevant to me. As long as their is no response how can one tell if the point is being taken or not? Hence the repetition of "complaints" with the game. In actuality, though, it's several different people bringing up the same point again and again, except for a few people who bring up the same point several times.

quote: and i thought developers' job was to.... develop. i now realize their actual job is babysitting fans

Yeah, you're right on the first one, Mark, but you are terribly wrong on the second one. The "developer" shouldn't be expected interact with the fans at all, however, when the "developer" does interact with the fans the "developer" should be compliant with the fans and try to resolve issues the consumers of his product have. All Firaxis employees should take the same act when interacting with customers, as well. Some of them do, while some don't.

quote: that's what he said. if you believe that with civ3 firaxis forgot who pays their wages, then stop buying their games. end of story

No, he didn't say that. This is what he said "The only real power you have as consumers is to either buy or not buy the game. A 'dear john' mumble here just can't compete with the ‘love letter’ you wrote to us in our royalty checks." Basically the only power we have is to buy the game or not, which means that we have no power over anything else. What he doesn't understand is that our power is far superior than his. Now for the other line: Continuing to fight with us isn't even worth it when compared to the money we gave him in buying Civ3. There is no merritt in trying to stay here and hash things out when he already has our money.

Btw, I have supported Firaxis in several arguments, but once I disagree with their actions for one of the first times I am labeled as being a crying, whining baby. Maybe you (GP) need to think about yourself for once, and stop worrying about what other people's opinions are. Just to let you know, though, my last statement is irrelevant in customer relations, so I didn't contradict myself.

More than likely Jeff is right in what he says, but it's the manner in which he spoke it. I forgive/forget easily (yes, I was offended, and typically I don't get offended because typically I could careless), so if PTW is good I'll buy it and if it's not good I won't buy it. I guess it is as simple as that.

	07-06-2002 02:42									#78
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My whole feeling no what he said revolved around this:

A 'dear john' mumble here just can't compete with the ‘love letter’ you wrote to us in our royalty checks.


I won't buy PTW, when I'm sure, if I really want to, it wouldn't be hard to get.

My problem came from the fact that, the it was written says" We don't care what your complaint is, we already have your money."

I talked to Jeff about this in chat last night, and he pretty much cleared up what he meant. However, he did word it wrong.

	07-06-2002 02:42									#79
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quote: As long as their is no response how can one tell if the point is being taken or not?

surely you agree that after 7 months certain opinions of people have been made crystal clear that only an idiot would not get. so, are you saying firaxis is a byunch of idiots?

quote: Hence the repetition of "complaints" with the game

people who post like coracle do not do it because they are not sure if firaxis heard them

quote: be compliant with the fans

see last night's chat log. unless you want to crucify jeff for one post
but see this quote

quote: We value all our customers since it is their money that pays our salaries

does that make you feel better?
and did jeff posting the above comment made your gaming experience better?

quote: Basically the only power we have is to buy the game or not

yes we, the consumers, have the power to make firaxis disappear. is that too little?

quote: which means that we have no power over anything else

well, in the end, we can not change the game ourselves, can we?

quote: What he doesn't understand is that our power is far superior than his

that's your interpretation

quote: Continuing to fight with us isn't even worth it when compared to the money we gave him in buying Civ3

well, that is true with all products isnt it? once you've payed for it, that's the end of the story. if you feel you have been fooled the best way to send your message to the company is to not buy any future products.


MarkG's improved short guide to understading the Jeffmorian wisdom:
- repititive complaints with no arguments have no impact on the game
- refusal to buy future products does have an impact


let's see if we need two more pages to make that more clear...

	07-06-2002 02:54									#80
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GP, is this your mentioned "teasing combat whiners"? Nice try, but at most 2 out of 10.

Far from this, I supported Firaxis in many arguments and should be allowed once to express my displeasure. No combat whining here. Sure, Jeffs statement is right, that's how capitalism works, but if I hear such tunes in a mall or supermarket, its usually the last time I was shopping there.

Finally, if this is the new way to treat customers in the US, after being famous for licking their butt in the 90's, I think we are safe here in Europe, economically.

	07-06-2002 03:20									#81
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Tech,

1. If Jeff told the truth, then just deal with it. I value honesty. Far better to have unpleasant, true comments than not get info.

2. You're going to have to hit me a lot harder to make me scream "hypocrite" at you. So don't worry about it. I'm not thinskinned. You might be...

3. There is a big difference between the type of customer service that I expect from a waitress, (where I am buying an experience.) than from a creative designer or an entertainer. I much prefer hardhitting comments from Charles Barkley to vacuous crap that you normally hear from sports stars. And anyway, it doesn't really affect my enjoyment of the product. When I eat a meal, a testy waitress bugs me. When I read a book or play a game, I could care less if the creator was too blunt with me.

4. (Just an FYI) I have hit Firaxis and QS, etc, pretty hard. I don't pull any punches with them. (Read my threads about Alan Emrich.) If they can handle my harsh remarks and not come up crying, than I can deal with blunt, true comments from them.

Last edited by TCO on 07-06-2002 at 03:27

	07-06-2002 03:24									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ralph,

1. Glad to hear you are not a combat whiner. You go off the suspicion list for that form of wimpyness.

2. Read (and think about) the comments to Tech. Points 3 and 4 speak directly to your most recent post.

	07-06-2002 03:34									#83
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: What he doesn't understand is that our power is far superior than his that's your interpretation [

One of the funny things about internet communities is that people start to think that they have more "power" than they really do. They also think that their opinion is worth much more than that of other customers who don't chat on the net.

Finally an important point for the Poly community. Jeff is releasing the exclusive info on PTW on other sites (not Poly). This shows that even for websites, Poly is not that crucial in terms of marketing.*

So what use is Poly to Firaxis? I have a viewpoint on this...but will give this later. Not directly related to this flame war...


*Sorry Mark, I did make a pitch for an "Activision deal"...they must think your price for a good review is too high. It's well known that they buy reviews, right?

	07-06-2002 03:51									#84
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quote: Jeff is releasing the exclusive info on PTW on other sites

well, gamespot still has more trafic than us

meanwhile, we published the first ever civ3 art

	07-06-2002 03:56									#85
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I talked up Poly to those guys. And Dan made some comment about that being an "unusual comment from me". (strange...)

	07-06-2002 04:16									#86
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Well. This is certainly a bit of a tempest.

I can see the point of view of those who took offence at Jeff's last statement re dear johns and love letters. However, I'm not sure if I am very offended by it.

To begin with, Jeff's post falls within a context of repeated and personal insults being hurled at Firaxians on these boards by some very few posters. For him to react in a human fashion in one case is very understandable. Note that he mentioned that insulting us or the game over and over again for months on end plays a role in deciding that someone should be ignored.

Does this mean that Firaxis ignores all of it's customers? Not in the least. I feel very much that I and others here on Poly and elsewhere have been listened to. Korn, Gramphos, Sn00py, Vel, player1, speedbump and many others certainly have been listened to.

In the end, actions are what matter to me. Jeff, and everyone at Firaxis have demonstrated a commitment to improving the game. That is the best that I could ever hope for. I certainly am not going to cut off my nose to spite my face by abandoning a game I enjoy simply because one of the developers finally told a troll where he could go.

Last edited by notyoueither on 07-06-2002 at 04:37

	07-06-2002 04:48									#87
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither In the end, actions are what matter to me. Jeff, and everyone at Firaxis have demonstrated a commitment to improving the game. That is the best that I could ever hope for. I certainly am not going to cut off my nose to spite my face by abandoning a game I enjoy simply because one of the developers finally told a troll where he could go.

My, point is that, there is not enough justification for me to by PtW. Having a post like that, which, admittedly, isn't even aimed at me, makes me feel that PtW is just another excuse for them to get more love letters.

PtW would have to I]PROVE [/I] itself before I buy it, whereas before I might have taken their word for it. Like I did with Civ 3.

	07-06-2002 05:13									#88
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Fair ball Tuber. My point is that I am not going to get too fussed by Jeff's post given the history of these forums. I would view it a bit differently if he were replying to the first or second barb. However, he was explaining how it might come to be that repetitive b*tching and moaning by a few will seldom have a positive influence on a products development.

Actually, I appreciate the fact that a Firaxian finally told one of the trolls to get stuffed.

The proof of PTW will be in the pudding. I'll be sure to let you know how it plays.

	07-06-2002 05:22									#89
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I don't mind him telling off a troll, NYE. I was actually cheering, but that last stuff really got under my craw. We did talk it out in the chat last night.

I will buy PtW, if there are enough features for single player. After reviews from people I respect like you and cyclotron.

	07-06-2002 09:30									#90
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strange i always thought part of the consumers power was the power of complaint. if you don't like it, say so, and if the company never fixes it, others who have heard the complaint will never buy it. So maybe what firaxis needs to do is silence its critics by giving them what they want. then they'll have the consumers reccomending their products instead of reccomending against them.

i've had a few friends ask me whether or not to buy civ3 since they know i was(still am) in love with civ2. I've told all of them NOT to buy the game. That's my power as a consumer.