05-06-2002 06:35									#1
	When to start trading Enter the AD-FREE zone

I've recently got really into the whole trade your-way-to-success strat, and was wondering when other players start building caravans for trade routes wholesale.
What I mean is, once I've gotten trade I start building caravans straight away, but most go to wonders. At a certain stage, when I feel my civ is big enough I max out tax and rushbuild caravans in all my large cities, then send them all to trade with whereever best.

But when? I often build markets first, and wait till after Construction so they are size 8+.

Also I have recently started playing on-again-off-again strat with citizens. I find this often outweighs the benefits of trading early.
What I mean by this is where you convert all citizens to taxmen/scientists one turn, turn enough back to harvest one food the next turn, then turn them back to tax/sci and so on.

How do y'all manage your trade then? Help me get the most out of those pesky arrows.

	05-06-2002 08:56									#2
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I use caravans only for wonders early. The first use of trade will be to set up three routes from my palace to the best city I can get to easily. Preferably, this is a rival on a different continent. The returns from early trade are so meager.

	05-06-2002 09:01									#3
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It all depends but if I am going for SS,everything stops at Trade and caravans are built and either delivered internally or dispatched off to foreign civs if demands and payout is worth the wait.Wonder shields can be bought with payoffs straight up or thru more caravans.
That first bit of gold goes into either markets ASAP or more caravans.I build up cities 1>3 at a time while others build camels.Each will get it's turn if I so choose.

There can be pretty big payoffs for smallish cities before Invention and/or Navigation.100 gold and 100 beakers is comparable to 500 in midgame..maybe more as tech cost is very low still.
Re-supporting+ ship chaining=pre 1000ad landings or armor vs phalanx scenarios

	05-06-2002 09:35									#4
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Early caravans are usually swallowed up in the rush for the first wonders…but early trade routes to the capital/SSC make a big difference - if the capital is short on trade specials I prefer the early trading to a library. Even a city only a few squares away can bring in a worthwhile return for a demanded commodity. Connect those two places with the magic road link and watch the ongoing route values increase.

Whilst most of us would prefer the Gardens and Colossus in the same city - I recall that Xin advocated a two continent trading strategy with the Gardens in the capital and the Colossus city on a different landmass. I have never found a map with favourable geography to try this approach. (You usually find the four whale islands too late ) Has anyone had success with this trading plan?

-----------------------------

SG(2)

	05-06-2002 14:08									#5
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Allow me to furnish an example from a MP duel I had the other day, that got me thinking about this.

Two size 8 cities, both have marketplaces, about 15 squares apart, on seperate continents. I thought the time was right to start a trade route. My revenue for an undemanded trade was 20 gold and 1 arrow per turn, with trade maxed. I don't see how that is worth it. Almost none of my cities were producing demanded commodities, but I thought I'd get a decent bonus for that... maybe I should take a look at the formula for trade again.

So to return to my question... if you are one of the players who advocates caravans above all else, what is your post-republic, pre-invention trade strategy? When to build marketplaces, when to establish trade routes? When to max science and let caravan bonuses move your science along?

	05-06-2002 15:41									#6
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The really big one off bonusses come from foreign trade - in my experience a decent sized foreign city with a trade special or two connected by the magic road/rail can often be better than one on a different continent.

The empire in the Mad Succession Game in Civ2|General is fairly typical of the sort of thing I strive for - a monster (size 20) capital and a host of hamlets each with three trade routes to the capital - only the caravans from the capital are worth sending overseas.

"post-Republic" what's a Republic?

SG[1]

	05-06-2002 21:27									#7
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Not all commodities give the same return. For example, silk will give 2.5 times more (IIRC) than hides for an otherwise identical route. SG points out the benefit of foreign trade. As a general rule, I will only deliver higher value caravans early on, saving the hides and food for wonders. Unless a nearby foreign island city demands it; You can get 40-50 beakers/gold from such a city only a few squares away. In the early game, this is often worth a turn or two of research time.

If you want to boost science, build libraries before any other improvement - except the temple if you play higher levels, and need the happiness control. Marketplaces can wait until after the trade routes are established.

	05-06-2002 21:30									#8
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O, regarding the 20g/1 arrow per turn return on your route: Don't forget that the per turn value will increase as the cities grow. In 50 turns, that may be worth 5 arrows per turn. Also, the cumulative effects of all cities. Ten cities with two such routes produce 20 arrows per turn, then later 100. Add libraries, and it makes a worthwhile difference to your research time. Existing routes can be replaced by new ones, as well.

	06-06-2002 14:17									#9
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Graag, you've nailed one of my most persistent questions about this game. It seems as if everyone raves about the value of early trade. But I find that in the period between learning trade and, say, explosive growth with WLT_D, the combined gold-and-science delivery bonuses are often less than the cost of building the caravan. And the ongoing bonus (about 1/8 of the cities' combined trade) is laughable -- often zero -- until at least one of the cities is generating pretty significant trade. Getting a caravan to a foreign or overseas city is often risky, and domestic routes are discounted 50% except where you can create the magical road connection. I have yet to see an ongoing trade route in the early game that seems to justify the caravan cost; I build them mainly for the delivery bonus. Do people really think it's worth delivering a caravan when the route only pays one or two gold per turn? Surely there's a better way to spend the gold or shields, and then deliver a caravan later when it really has some value? I guess my question, and probably Graag's as well, is: when does the delivery of a caravan become a better expenditure than everything else you could have spent the resources on?