05-06-2002 21:09									#31
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun As long as affirmative action is meant to create equality and undo past discrimination, I will believe that affirmative action is justified.

So as long as the intentions are good then its ok to continue? If this is the attitude then AA will never end.

quote: Unless you can find a way to convince all whites not to discriminate based on race and gender??

Whites arent the only ones who discriminate, but they are the only ones who are legally discriminated against.

quote: I will toss out that flawed logic that you pointed out.

What flawed logic is that exactly?

	05-06-2002 21:13									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia What flawed logic is that exactly?

The one that I used -- my mistake as you pointed out.


Read my latest post too.

	05-06-2002 21:47									#33
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Secondly, affirmative action may be a form of discrimination, but in this case, this type of discrimination is justified.

Actively searching out and recruiting qualified minorities is one thing, supporting less qualified minority candidates over whites will only perpetuate the seperation.

quote: But then, you will counter with "two wrongs do not make a right." In that case, we should never have attacked the Al-Queda in Afghanistan. Violence is a terrible thing -- so two wrongs do not make a right. If two wrongs do not make a right, we should just let terrorists walk all over us -- but we are not doing that, thank God.

Attacking Al-Queda isnt about rights and wrongs. Its simply that after they're all dead, they wont be a direct threat to us anymore.

	05-06-2002 22:14									#34
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Well, the "New Caligastia" didn't last too long, did he?

About as long as New Coke...

	05-06-2002 22:16									#35
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun First off, using a strawman argument is not always deliberate -- it can result from a mistake rather than deliberate distortion. I never really said that you're lying -- but distorting the purpose of affirmative action.

Im not distorting anything, just quoting a "statement of nondiscrimination" from a university booklet. I havent even commented on the purpose of AA. All I said was that if they were honest in this booklet, the correct title would be "statement of discrimination" because they discriminate against white men.

quote: Secondly, affirmative action may be a form of discrimination, but in this case, this type of discrimination is justified.

So you admit that you think racial discrimination is ok, as long as its against whites.

quote: But then, you will counter with "two wrongs do not make a right." In that case, we should never have attacked the Al-Queda in Afghanistan. Violence is a terrible thing -- so two wrongs do not make a right. If two wrongs do not make a right, we should just let terrorists walk all over us -- but we are not doing that, thank God.

Getting slightly off the topic here dont you think?

	05-06-2002 22:20									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Well, the "New Caligastia" didn't last too long, did he?

What is your concept of the "New Caligastia"? A Caligastia that never wants to discuss controversial issues? Forget it. I never said I wouldnt discuss what I want. All I promised was to show more respect for others by not intentionally angering. My intention here is not to anger others, but to discuss. If what I want to discuss makes you angry, too bad. It wasnt my intention.

	05-06-2002 23:00									#37
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I've always had a problem with the whole concept of "positive discrimination". While I don't doubt it's good intentions, I think it's short-sighted. It's like trying to put out a fire by dousing it in petrol.

	05-06-2002 23:03									#38
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AA is not about reddressing past mistakes. It is about redressing current discrimination.

White males are not less likely to get into school as before. It is just that schools are making it easier for those who are targetted by instituional racism and gender bias to overcome those hurdles.

Numerous studies have shown that discrimination has a profound effect on testing abilities, with temproarily "discriminated" groups testing lower than normal and temporarily "in-power" groups testing higher than normal. If admissions standards are lowered for those who are discriminated against, it isn't making it any harder for those in the in-power group to get in.

I can understand there are those who think that government should be color blind. Maybe that's so, but at the same time, we should give up all the advantages we have for being straight white men.

	05-06-2002 23:14									#39
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Chegitz-
Why dont they just call it what it is? Discrimination against White Males. The part I quoted you should be titled "Statement of Discrimination".

I think the advantages for being straight white men are exaggerated. Just as the disadvantages of being black are exaggerated.

	05-06-2002 23:18									#40
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Because it's not discrimination against white males. No obstacles are being placed in white males' pathes. White males are not being prevented from entering school or getting scholarships due to their race or gender.

quote: I think the advantages for being straight white men are exaggerated. Just as the disadvantages of being black are exaggerated.

Yes, but you're also a clueless racist. Thinking otherwise would contradict your belief in the inherent superiority of whites.

	05-06-2002 23:23									#41
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because it's not discrimination against white males. No obstacles are being placed in white males' pathes. White males are not being prevented from entering school or getting scholarships due to their race or gender.

So to include everyone but white males in the "protected class" does not discriminate against white males? What you are saying is that its ok to discriminate, as long as its against white males because it cant be discrimination if its against white males. And you call me racist.

quote: Yes, but you're also a clueless racist. Thinking otherwise would contradict your belief in the inherent superiority of whites.

Give it a rest Che, you really have no clue about me. Accusations of racism get boring pretty fast...

	05-06-2002 23:24									#42
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Che,

I see your point about the reasons behind AA (disadvantages for various minority groups), but like I said, I wish there was a better way to go about it. Further, just to nit-pick, if you have an institution such as a college which can accept 1000 students, and you deliberately boost the chances of certain applicants due to their race/religion/etc., you are discriminating against those that do not fall into such groups, as less of them will get in. In this case, white males.

-Arrian

	05-06-2002 23:31									#43
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It simply amuses me how Mr. Fun defends the most outrageous of actions.

Aren't these colleges supposed to prepare these kids for the real world? And in the real world employer's do not higher people based on race (well except maybe in Hollywood- it would be silly to hire a white actor to play a black role ). The real world does not have affirmative action neither should college.

And don't say this is some strawman argument Mr. Fun. I'm not some paranoid white man. I can take any discimination against my race. It doesn't bother me in the least bit. I know we have it good, and it doesn't bother me the least bit to help the other races out a bit.

But we should be preparing these kids for the real world. That is my argument against AA.

	05-06-2002 23:34									#44
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So because the real world is racist, our colleges should be racist also?

	05-06-2002 23:37									#45
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So because the real world is racist, our colleges should be racist also?

Thats what you seem to be saying.

	05-06-2002 23:38									#46
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Bingo. He's got you there, Che.

-Arrian

	05-06-2002 23:40									#47
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now that statement is just silly che

you don't seem to be able to comprehend my words

the real world isn't racist by law. I'm not saying there aren't racist employers. But by law they aren't racist. So by law the colleges shouldn't be racist. If a dean Or whoever approves takes a black person over a white person- that is his decision. Only he will know in his mind if that was based on race. But to have a policy to take one race over the other contradicts the law.

Is that understandable?

	05-06-2002 23:43									#48
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So because de jure racism is no longer, we should allow de facto racism, Dissident?

Arrian, Cal ain't got me. Cal lives in this bizzaro world where fighting racism is being racist.

	05-06-2002 23:45									#49
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AA is racism. There is no other way to describe it.

The arguments against it are very weak.

You have one poster who attacks the people saying it. Like somehow he is able to travel thousands of miles and get inside our heads. Somehow he assumes we are paranoid straight males.

Do you even know I'm straight Mr. Fun? do you even know I'm a male? Do you even know I'm a native american? I am. But not enough I suppose to get admission to this college because my skin is still white.

I still think AA is racist. But it doesn't bother me the least bit. As I've said before I'm all for giving people a boost. But there should come a time when they don't need that boost. Or they have enough pride to be offended by such programs. But that isn't my decision. I'll leave that up to the minorities.

	05-06-2002 23:46									#50
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Cal ain't got me. Cal lives in this bizzaro world where fighting racism is being racist.

Nope, thats the world you live in. You think being racist fights racism.

	05-06-2002 23:46									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because it's not discrimination against white males. No obstacles are being placed in white males' pathes. White males are not being prevented from entering school or getting scholarships due to their race or gender.

I think you should go look at some of my posts again Che, it seems to have escaped your notice, but I pointed out that obsticles WERE placed in my way because of race.

	05-06-2002 23:49									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I still think AA is racist. But it doesn't bother me the least bit. As I've said before I'm all for giving people a boost. But there should come a time when they don't need that boost. Or they have enough pride to be offended by such programs. But that isn't my decision. I'll leave that up to the minorities.

Do you think they will admit it when the time comes that they dont need a boost? Or is it more likely that they will keep claiming victim status and taking the money? I know which scenario I think is more likely.

	05-06-2002 23:50									#53
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well I'm out of here.

But I want to know if you AA supporters think I should get special admission to this college because I'm part native american. My people have been discriminated against. But wait! My skin is white. So does that exclude me from the AA program?

	05-06-2002 23:51									#54
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Che knows Im right, and that his position is indefensable, so he just ignores me or accuses me of being a racist. Kind of childish dont you think?

	05-06-2002 23:52									#55
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Che,

Unless you are in favor of thought control (hmmm...you are a commie), the government can't stamp out de facto racism. And, IMO, its attempts to do so through affirmative action aren't going to work, and in fact may be counterproductive.

The best way to fight racism, IMO, is to educate - specifically public education (k-12), and working to improve our terrible inner city schools, so that kids from all over will have equal opportunities for higher education and/or employment.

-Arrian

	05-06-2002 23:58									#56
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Yes, Chris, your post did escape my notice. You did not indicate whether she received a minority scholarship or not. You are aware there are scholarships for Greek-Americans, are you not? I knew plenty of Black students that had to work their way through shool. I, on the other hand, recieved need based grants and loans which paid for everything and some living expenses. Unfortunately, it was haphazard, and our Financial Aid department was so messed up that I didn't know from one quarter to the next whether I'd be in school. . . . and now I have $45K in loans to pay off.

	05-06-2002 23:59									#57
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How often is affirmative action debated on Apolyton anyway -- once every week??



First off, once again, someone on this thread stated that affirmative action is about seeking out less qualified minority group members.

That is definitely a distortion -- AA is about seeking out equally qualified or more qualified, minority group members.


As for the real world -- it is still the old white boys' club -- that is how the real world works, Dissident.
AA is about doing away with that racist club mentality.

	06-06-2002 00:00									#58
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It's not the old white boy's club in the NBA

so youre post is wrong

	06-06-2002 00:01									#59
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and I want an asnwer to my question.

should I be eligible for AA because of my native american background even though my skin is white? I want to know the rules of AA

	06-06-2002 00:08									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Che, Unless you are in favor of thought control (hmmm...you are a commie), the government can't stamp out de facto racism. And, IMO, its attempts to do so through affirmative action aren't going to work, and in fact may be counterproductive.

Ha ha. Racism is not simply dislike or hatred of a different race. It isn't simply thinking that another race is morally inferior. It also includes the ability to put those beliefs into practice. If it were simply a case of white folks not liking Black folks, well you know, most Black folks I know don't care. But being followed around in stores, being told you aren't qualified for school or a job when you are, being hassaled by the police for daring to drive a nice car or be walkin in a nice neighborhood, all these things take a toll on a person. These are the kind of things that can and should be outlawed. AA attempts to outlaw one of these practices, being told you aren't qualified for a job based on an excess of melanonin in your skin.

As for a backlash caused by AA, there was a backlash caused by Blacks trying to end segregation on busses, a backlash when Blacks tried to get the right to vote. Every step of the way towards full euqality by those who are oppressed has created a backlash.

There is a near constant backlash against women trying to have careers. Every 5 years or so some new half-baked study says women are more likely to die in a terrorist attack then get married past age 30. Now it's how all these women have discovered at 40 that they missed having a family! All the time being told that women are "bad" for making the choice to have a career, when men aren't ever told that.

And what about the backlash against Gay liberation? Supposeldy gays want "special rights," like the right to get married, and the right not to lose a job or a home or a child because of sexual orientation. Gosh, I wish us straight people had those "special rights." Oh wait, we do.

Every movement towards freedom is resisted by those in power. Always has been, always will be. And because they are able to dupe the foolish and reactionary into following them is no reason to oppose freedom.

quote: The best way to fight racism, IMO, is to educate - specifically public education (k-12), and working to improve our terrible inner city schools, so that kids from all over will have equal opportunities for higher education and/or employment. -Arrian

I can totally get behind that, but that still puts off to the future remediation for the effects of racism today.