06-06-2002 00:10									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident It's not the old white boy's club in the NBA so youre post is wrong

So because the majority of the entertainers in the NBA are Black, we should ignore the all white ownership (Jordan sold his share) and the blizzard of whites in management? Sounds like the Cotton Club to me.

	06-06-2002 00:11									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident and I want an asnwer to my question. should I be eligible for AA because of my native american background even though my skin is white? I want to know the rules of AA

How were you raised?

	06-06-2002 00:14									#63
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So then...the best solution to the problem is that, since it's a white man's world and all....the BEST solution to come down the pike is to discriminate against all white males, beating them to the punch, and thereby ensuring a "proper" mix of people in a work environment.

Nevermind that there may or may not be qualified minority candidates in a given locale willing or able to do the job in question.

Nevermind that the candidate who HAPPENS TO BE WHITE gets passed over cos "hey buddy, we got a quota to fill!"

But that's somehow magically not discriminatory.

Gotcha.



-=Vel=-
(who agrees with the lofty ambitions of AA, but thinks that its implementation leaves a HUGE amount to be desired)

	06-06-2002 00:17									#64
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How was I raised?

So irregardless of my heritage, because I was raised white I'm not eligible for AA?

What a crock.

And I can't help it if more rich black people don't buy NBA teams. Maybe they are smart, and realize the NBA peaked years ago, and the teams have peaked in their market value.

	06-06-2002 00:19									#65
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Racism is not simply dislike or hatred of a different race. It isn't simply thinking that another race is morally inferior.

As you think the white race are. So by your own definition you are racist.

	06-06-2002 00:19									#66
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Che,

As far as I know, being harrassed by the police is illegal. Being followed around in a store, if it's proven to be harassment (difficult, I'm sure) would also be against the law.

The most problematic is the job market - it's really, really hard to know if an employer decided on a white worker over a black worker because of race or because of qualifications, unless the employer is incredibly overt. If a company systematically hires whites over blacks when qualifications for the job are equal, and this can be proven (difficult, but not impossible), that company is in deep and serious ****. And rightly so.

The college handbook on "non-discrimination" posted by Cal is, in fact, racist. Justify it however you want, but it is what it is. And I think we as a society should be taking a different tack here. And you're right, the results would take a while to show up. Real change tends to take time.

-Arrian

	06-06-2002 00:19									#67
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara How were you raised?

Chegitz read my mind, Dissident.


So before Chegitz or myself can answer your question, we need some more information.

	06-06-2002 00:21									#68
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I do like the term "protected class" though.

I really dislike the term minority. Soon in my city whites will not be the majority. And men aren't the majority since women make up a slightly higher % of the population.

So the term minority seems innaccurate to me.

We can come up with something better. How about the disadvantaged?

	06-06-2002 00:21									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Che, As far as I know, being harrassed by the police is illegal. Being followed around in a store, if it's proven to be harassment (difficult, I'm sure) would also be against the law. The most problematic is the job market - it's really, really hard to know if an employer decided on a white worker over a black worker because of race or because of qualifications, unless the employer is incredibly overt. If a company systematically hires whites over blacks when qualifications for the job are equal, and this can be proven (difficult, but not impossible), that company is in deep and serious ****. And rightly so. The excerpt posted by Cal is, in fact, racist. Justify it however you want, but it is what it is. And I think we as a society should be taking a different tack here. And you're right, the results would take a while to show up. Real change tends to take time. -Arrian

Just because something is illegal, does not mean it does not happen.

Do you remember that guy named Rodney King in 1993??
That is only one, highly visible example of how white police officers harrass minority group members.

	06-06-2002 00:23									#70
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: The best way to fight racism, IMO, is to educate - specifically public education (k-12), and working to improve our terrible inner city schools, so that kids from all over will have equal opportunities for higher education and/or employment. -Arrian I can totally get behind that, but that still puts off to the future remediation for the effects of racism today.

Except that the remediation eforts of today are like or not causing backlash that will bear its fruit in the future. AA in concept is a good one, but it has to date not had meaningful impact.

In order to allow the socio/economically disadvantaged a chance one can not realistically expect a one generational change to have any meaningful effect. Eduction is a long term investment and if emphasized properly across multiple generations will allow an evening of the playing field.

	06-06-2002 00:28									#71
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Do you remember that guy named Rodney King in 1993?? That is only one, highly visible example of how white police officers harrass minority group members.

Rodney King got what he deserved, he attacked the police first. Why do you think the officers were let off? Of course the race-baiting media only show the part where the cops hit back.

	06-06-2002 00:29									#72
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Rodney King? Yeah, and the officers got off, and that was wrong. An abuse of the law.

How about OJ Simpson? True, that was a fame thing rather than a race thing, but that wasn't justice either.

We've got to make the best laws we can, and try to uphold them. That we will sometimes fail is obvious.

-Arrian

	06-06-2002 00:31									#73
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Mr. Fun...that's true, but think about what you're saying for a second and let's carry the example to another arena...:

It's illegal to bribe politicians in order to sway their votes, but by your (and AA) logic, since it happens anyway, the BEST thing we can do....the answer to end all answers is to set up a special agency of the government where everybody can come in and bribe equally....well, not exactly equally, cos see, we'll give certain "protected classes" greater access than they'd normally have to do some bribing.

That does NOTHING to get at the root of the problem (as Og and Arrian stated more eloquently than I).

-=Vel=-

	06-06-2002 00:31									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Rodney King? Yeah, and the officers got off, and that was wrong. An abuse of the law.

To anyone who saw the media portrayal of the event it would seem wrong that they got off, but in court the whole story was told. Thats why they were let off.

	06-06-2002 00:32									#75
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes, Chris, your post did escape my notice. You did not indicate whether she received a minority scholarship or not. You are aware there are scholarships for Greek-Americans, are you not? I knew plenty of Black students that had to work their way through shool. I, on the other hand, recieved need based grants and loans which paid for everything and some living expenses. Unfortunately, it was haphazard, and our Financial Aid department was so messed up that I didn't know from one quarter to the next whether I'd be in school. . . . and now I have $45K in loans to pay off.

In my freshmen semester, there were aprox 25 black kids, 10 hispanics, 3 asians and and 5 white students (4 Greeks, one Italain, the one white girl was greek), not ONE of the black kids (only one girl there, 2 spanish girls in the other group, no asian girls in my class) was paying a dime, OR working.

The Spanish kids all had low interest loans or outright payouts, of the whites, all FOUR of them had to pay tuition and recieved no subsity, only I did for military service.

Only 7 of us graduated from that (myself, one white gal, one spanish guy and one spanish gal one white guy and 2 black students ( one of which had a 4.0 GPA), that was it.
He was the only one that could have won a scholarship.
(My GPA was 3.4, math blows).

Something is seriously wrong with those kinds of numbers, that school had an 80% dropout rate overall.

	06-06-2002 00:32									#76
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Caligastia, I remember a lunch conversation with a gentleman from England some years ago who made a series of disparaging remarks about the Italians, and concluded his remarks with the observation that "they are a different race that we are after all."

	06-06-2002 00:33									#77
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Cal, it is called policy brutality.
When did Rodney King attack the police officers??
He definitely did not deserve that beating -- no one does.
Now, I think that you might be racist.

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Rodney King? Yeah, and the officers got off, and that was wrong. An abuse of the law. How about OJ Simpson? True, that was a fame thing rather than a race thing, but that wasn't justice either. We've got to make the best laws we can, and try to uphold them. That we will sometimes fail is obvious. -Arrian

Yes, I agree -- the OJ case was another example of injustice.

	06-06-2002 00:36									#78
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Cal, it is called policy brutality. When did Rodney King attack the police officers?? He definitely did not deserve that beating -- one does.

You didnt see Rodney attack the police because the media didnt show it. Rodney has a long history of violence, and Im not suprised the police acted in the way they did. Most people when attacked instinctively fight back.

	06-06-2002 00:36									#79
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DP

	06-06-2002 00:37									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Caligastia, I remember a lunch conversation with a gentleman from England some years ago who made a series of disparaging remarks about the Italians, and concluded his remarks with the observation that "they are a different race that we are after all."

Provide me with his address, and (if he's local) I'll piss through his letterbox for you.

	06-06-2002 00:37									#81
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We have an echo.

	06-06-2002 00:37									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Caligastia, I remember a lunch conversation with a gentleman from England some years ago who made a series of disparaging remarks about the Italians, and concluded his remarks with the observation that "they are a different race that we are after all."

Can anyone really tell an italian by the way they look? They are a pretty mixed bunch.

	06-06-2002 00:39									#83
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Chris62,

I believe your getting to the seond part of my statement. Part of eduction is educating the parties themselves to the benefits of having and stiving for eduction. At present it appears to be considered a chumps way of life.

I don't have an answer for it. You see all too often a stigma attached to those leaving the streets in favor of educating themselves as 'Not keeping it real". My bet is that gentleman with the 4.0 was an outcast. Shame if my bet is on themoney.

Og

	06-06-2002 00:40									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ron Jeremy We have an echo.

Your big enough to hit two for one Ron, you old Bastard.

	06-06-2002 01:57									#85
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Whats the matter Chegitz? Did the big, bad racists make you cry?

	06-06-2002 03:20									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You didnt see Rodney attack the police because the media didnt show it. Rodney has a long history of violence, and Im not suprised the police acted in the way they did. Most people when attacked instinctively fight back.

What source proved that Rodney King attacked the police??

If those police officers lied about being attacked first, YOU probably would believe it, wouldn't you?

	06-06-2002 03:26									#87
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When an Italian tells me it is pasta, I check beneath the sauce to make sure.

	06-06-2002 08:55									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Whats the matter Chegitz? Did the big, bad racists make you cry?

No, I went into the chat room for a while and forgot about the forum. Then I had dinner, then I watched some stupid Hallmark movie with bunnygrrl, then some news. Came back, read some articles on TheNation.com, checked my downloads, then began browsing here again.

Really, you shouldn't assume that I have nothing besides Apolyton to do just cuz I'm unemployed. Heck, I even have a swimming pool to go take a dip in (though as hot as it's been, it's not very cool and refreshing right now).

It's called a life. I suggest you look into having one.

	06-06-2002 09:56									#89
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quote: In order to allow the socio/economically disadvantaged a chance one can not realistically expect a one generational change to have any meaningful effect. Eduction is a long term investment and if emphasized properly across multiple generations will allow an evening of the playing field.

And that should include "whites" so to speak. If you protect one class you discriminate against the others. For that matter if you protect one "class" or "sex" you discriminate the others.

	06-06-2002 12:55									#90
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As I have stated so often before on these AA debates, why don't we use admissions policies etc. that take into account an applicant's background but not their race or ethnicity. Thus prospective students whose parents never attended college would get a slight bonus to their enrollment 'score' etc. etc. Can't we clear the path of access for everyone in our society who deserves a helping hand without breaking out our racial scorecards and deciding which group won the point? Imagine how both race relations and support for programs that help the disadvantaged would be improved by this simple committment to color blindness.