06-06-2002 04:38									#1
	Let's help Firaxis with "mega-bank" and other ideas Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I haven't seen a lot of discussion of this (forgive me if I missed a thread), but in a recent article on PTW, there was this paragraph:

quote: In an effort to add some depth to the tail-end of the single player game, the developers are considering a number of changes.  There may be a new Great Wonder (possibly The Internet, which one could theorize would act as a Research Lab in every city).  City improvements are also under consideration.  A "Civil Defense" type structure might be added to improve the defense of large, modern cities.  A "commercial dock" of some sort might be added.  Also, while research institutions have three levels (Library, University and Research Lab), economic improvements only have two (Marketplace and Bank).  A "Mega-Bank" type improvement would add a third level of economic activity to modern cities.

Seems to me that Firaxis has realized that one runs out of things to build near the end of the Industrial Age, and is trying to fix it by adding more stuff. All good. Also seems like they're still figuring out just what to add. We should put our thinking hats on and help come up with good ideas. For instance, it looks like they need help if "mega-bank" is the best third gold producing building they can come up with.

Any ideas? For that one, Shopping Center would be one idea. I'd also like to see an improvement boosting food production 25% or something like that. Population should be exploding practically exponentially at this time, when in the game its usually maxing out as all the tiles around a city get used up. Plus, it would be great to have an improvement flag like this for scenarios. They should have Sewer System allow largest size cities, and Hospital boost city growth.

I also hope that with new wonders and buildings they generally give them new functions instead of just repeating the ones already in the game. For instance, instead of another happiness wonder, howabout reviving the idea Firaxis mentioned before the game was released of a Great Canal wonder that allows your ships to sail through a narrow stretch of land?

Howabout a Carbon Reduction Treaty wonder that would reduce pollution not only in your civ but all over the world, and thus reduce a lot of end game polluting cleaning tedium?

	06-06-2002 05:23									#2
	Re: Let's help Firaxis with "mega-bank" and other ideas Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Good Idea Harley

quote: Originally posted by Harlan : Seems to me that Firaxis has realized that one runs out of things to build near the end of the Industrial Age, and is trying to fix it by adding more stuff. All good. Also seems like they're still figuring out just what to add. We should put our thinking hats on and help come up with good ideas. For instance, it looks like they need help if "mega-bank" is the best third gold producing building they can come up with. Any ideas? For that one, Shopping Center would be one idea. I'd also like to see an improvement boosting food production 25% or something like that. Population should be exploding practically exponentially at this time, when in the game its usually maxing out as all the tiles around a city get used up. Plus, it would be great to have an improvement flag like this for scenarios. They should have Sewer System allow largest size cities, and Hospital boost city growth. I also hope that with new wonders and buildings they generally give them new functions instead of just repeating the ones already in the game. For instance, instead of another happiness wonder, howabout reviving the idea Firaxis mentioned before the game was released of a Great Canal wonder that allows your ships to sail through a narrow stretch of land? Howabout a Carbon Reduction Treaty wonder that would reduce pollution not only in your civ but all over the world, and thus reduce a lot of end game polluting cleaning tedium?

These are all good ideas, how about falling back on the old "stock exchange" if this isn't already covered by wall street.

I really like your hospital/sewer system proposal.

A good late-industrial age wonder that could become available with Atomic Theory is "Einsteins Laboratory". I think I did something like this with the Balancer actually. I think I had it serving as a Great Library type wonder until the advent of Space Flight. It worked pretty well.

	06-06-2002 05:35									#3
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I'd really like to see a modern harbor (another +1 food on shore/sea tiles)
New forbidden palaces. I's like to see them considered as regular improvements, but you can build them only once per # of cities.
Some buildings like "TV station" or so, which reduce war weariness / increase culture / increase happiness / allow a super entertainer.
A "Hollywood" wonder which raises your chances of positive cultural reversion.
More culture buildings in the industrial / modern era. Check Korn's Blitz mod, which has great ideas.

	06-06-2002 06:05									#4
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they all sound like very good ideas. i dont think 'mega-bank' would work though. shopping center sounds a little better. the "internet' wonder should have some sort of global effect. i would just love some sort of 'kyoto protocols' or something for reducing pollution.

jd

	06-06-2002 06:44									#5
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I can't believe civ doesn't already have something as simple as a Newspaper city improvement, or at least some sort of media. After all, it is one of the driving forces in modern business.

	06-06-2002 06:45									#6
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Something like the Offshore Drilling thingy in Civ2 which adds +1 shield to all ocean squares. As it stands now, oceans squares are not very good.

	06-06-2002 07:43									#7
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Another idea to reduce late game tedium (Firaxis should be seizing onto any and every idea to reduce late game tedium):

An Empancipation / Civil Rights small wonder. When completed, all your captured Workers work just as fast as your home made ones. Suddenly half the late game Worker hassle.

Connected with this perhaps: a flag to set the percent chance that defenseless units will be successfully captured. Sometimes they should just die. As it is, I get way more Workers than I know what to do with when I go on conquering rampages. If there is less than 100% survival now, the survival rate should be even lower (and editable!).

End result: fewer but more efficient Workers to move around.

	06-06-2002 08:12									#8
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Stock Market sounds like a good idea. Except then they would have to link Wall Street to 5 stock markets instead of 5 banks. Also the civ 2 supermarket which doubles food output.
They need to beef up the Industrial Age techs. A lot of times you reasearch a ton of techs, and you get hardly anything from them. No units, no city improvments, no resources.
This allows civs who have not built up their ciites to catch up with those who have. If you spent the whole Ancient and Middle ages fighting, you can spend the industrial age catching up because there is very few things to be built during that time.
Heres a few suggestions

1. Offshore Platforme: +1 shields to ocean squares
2. Supermarket: +2 food to all land tiles already producing one
3. Stock Exchange: Increase the money you make somehow
4. Railroad Station: +1 commerce to railroad squares

	06-06-2002 08:46									#9
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Quite a few ideas to throw around. How about improvements that actually improve the effectiveness of specialist citizens. They could be cheap as dirt to maintain.

The Tax Office could improve taxmen (for obvious efficiency reasons).

An entertainment centre/theatre could improve entertainers (obviously because it is a central location where people can watch entertainers perform).

And schools (as in public/private grade/high schools) could improve scientists (as they would be better educated having grown up going to a local school).

Add a new type of specialist (policeman) that reduces corruption/waste in the city, and add a Prison city improvement to increase its effect. The Alcatraz great wonder could then count as a prison in each city.


Apart from that, here are a few more ideas off the top of my head.

Definitely a modern coastal improvement that increases food further, cumulative with the harbour. Perhaps a "Fishery", or "Hatchery" or something. And another coastal improvement that could increase shield output (cumulative with the Offshore Platform anyway).

Stock Exchange isn't as good an idea as a Shopping centre. Like the marketplace, the shopping centre could not only increase tax output, but also further increase effect luxuries have on happiness.

Farmland and Supermarkets should also make a return. The extra food and population could then help make the specialists more significant (especially if the improvement that increases their effect has been built).

An industrial/modern improved mine (mining complex maybe) that can only be built on hills/mountains, and possibly desert/tundra (grasslands/plains may have some small degree of mineral value for small scale mining, but large scale mining operations couldn't possibly be carried out in such areas). For the increased shields, you could need railroads on the square as well, and a "Rail Depot" Improvement (that will also increase commerce on railroad squares).

Superhighways should also make a return, increasing the commerce of road/railroad squares. Cumulative with the Rail Depot on railroads.

	06-06-2002 08:58									#10
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for the mega bank replace the small wonder wall street with the federal reserve bank and make stock exchanges a city improvement. Afterall the Fed in real life NEEDS banks in order to serve a purpose whereas wall street is really an alternative to the bank.

I think some sort of mass media improvement might be good, although if it is called television or Hollywood, then it should change unhappy citizens to content (not happy) but have a negative effect on culture. If its a wonder (large or small) and you have it it should improve the chance cities from nations without it will come over to your side.

	06-06-2002 09:03									#11
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I noticed my message was posted twice. I tried to delete this second copy but for some reason it won't let me. Sorry.

Last edited by Hoznog on 06-06-2002 at 14:25

	06-06-2002 12:57									#12
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quote: 1. Offshore Platforme: +1 shields to ocean squares

Lawrence: there IS already an offshore platform in the game. (But you never build it cause when you've got the tech most people have already won.)

	06-06-2002 13:28									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan An Empancipation / Civil Rights small wonder. When completed, all your captured Workers work just as fast as your home made ones. Suddenly half the late game Worker hassle.

	06-06-2002 14:03									#14
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The best ideas I've seen in a long time!

quote: Originally posted by LordAzreal Quite a few ideas to throw around. How about improvements that actually improve the effectiveness of specialist citizens. They could be cheap as dirt to maintain. The Tax Office could improve taxmen (for obvious efficiency reasons). An entertainment centre/theatre could improve entertainers (obviously because it is a central location where people can watch entertainers perform). And schools (as in public/private grade/high schools) could improve scientists (as they would be better educated having grown up going to a local school). Add a new type of specialist (policeman) that reduces corruption/waste in the city, and add a Prison city improvement to increase its effect. The Alcatraz great wonder could then count as a prison in each city.

I would really like that. Even just the introduction of policemen would be great!

quote: Apart from that, here are a few more ideas off the top of my head. Definitely a modern coastal improvement that increases food further, cumulative with the harbour. Perhaps a "Fishery", or "Hatchery" or something. And another coastal improvement that could increase shield output (cumulative with the Offshore Platform anyway). Stock Exchange isn't as good an idea as a Shopping centre. Like the marketplace, the shopping centre could not only increase tax output, but also further increase effect luxuries have on happiness. Farmland and Supermarkets should also make a return. The extra food and population could then help make the specialists more significant (especially if the improvement that increases their effect has been built).

Farmlands and Supermarkets should definitely return, it would keep your workers busy even in the late game (as is not the case now).

quote: An industrial/modern improved mine (mining complex maybe) that can only be built on hills/mountains, and possibly desert/tundra (grasslands/plains may have some small degree of mineral value for small scale mining, but large scale mining operations couldn't possibly be carried out in such areas). For the increased shields, you could need railroads on the square as well, and a "Rail Depot" Improvement (that will also increase commerce on railroad squares).

A good idea. I would like if they took away all current bonuses from the railroad exept the movement. Instead they should put in a modern mine working exactly like you describe. The mine square should have to have railroad aswell to produce any bonus over the bonus from a regular mine, and the railroad should have to be connected to a city.

If this was the case, we wouldn't have to have railroad everywhere, but only between cities and to/from mines.

quote: Superhighways should also make a return, increasing the commerce of road/railroad squares. Cumulative with the Rail Depot on railroads.

Don't know what I think about this one.

Overall, great ideas!

Edit: another thing that has been said over and over again, but cannot be said too often: I should be able to use the roads in my enemy's empire, but not the railroads!

	06-06-2002 22:46									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Stock Market sounds like a good idea. Except then they would have to link Wall Street to 5 stock markets instead of 5 banks. Also the civ 2 supermarket which doubles food output. ... Heres a few suggestions 1. Offshore Platforme: +1 shields to ocean squares 2. Supermarket: +2 food to all land tiles already producing one 3. Stock Exchange: Increase the money you make somehow 4. Railroad Station: +1 commerce to railroad squares

Stock Market
Rename Wall Street to the Federal Reserve (as someone else suggested).
Definately need the farmland/supermarket improvements back.
A Theater would be a good idea as well, possibly using the "+50% luxuries" flag that is currently unused by anything.

	06-06-2002 23:59									#16
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hi ,

Firaxis , we got a library , and a university , where is the school , ...and what happens to our city's when fire break's out , .....there should be a central bank after you build 5 banks , Wall street should be a big wonder , with more intrest to earn , to lets say max 100 gold , ....on top of the central bank , ...a supermarket , it should make one unhappy person content , ....

have a nice day

	07-06-2002 00:16									#17
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hi ,

more civ specific Qualities , .....

have a nice day

	07-06-2002 01:00									#18
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Well this is amusing: all of these things were present in CPT2. Now since stealing from one is plagerism, stealing from 2 or 3, literary discernment, and stealing from many, masterful research, the simplest idea for making things a little more "exponential" would be to make workers able to improve existing mines and farms.

Just like railroads are improved roads, the coding to impliment an added improvement to a farm or mine should be fairly easy. So an improved mine or farm would add one more shield or food, and maybe an improved railroad (mag tubes?) could add one more commerce.

Now if only you could mate the detail in the MedMod for CTP 2 with the gameplay in Civ3, we'd be living like mice.

"... so what do you want to do tonight, Brain ? (Narf)"
" Same thing we do every night: TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!"

	07-06-2002 01:18									#19
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Put the stock market from Civ2 back in.

Add double irrigation (farms), put Supermarket from Civ2 back in, with the same effect as before.

Hospital or Sewer System, it doesn't really matter what you call it, is fine as it is.

A TV station would reduce war weariness?! [hint]Vietnam[/hint]

This wouldn't be an Industrial Age improvement, but they should add a "Nuclear Bunker" improvement that would lessen damage from a nuclear strike and would (possibly) ease war weariness. They'd have to make nukes, or at least ICBM's, a lot more powerful though.

	07-06-2002 01:52									#20
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I don't think that supermarkets / farmland would be very useful in Civ3. They were in Civ2, but in Civ3 I usually have already the problem that I produce more than enough food.

The other ideas are really good.

	07-06-2002 01:58									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Lucilla I don't think that supermarkets / farmland would be very useful in Civ3. They were in Civ2, but in Civ3 I usually have already the problem that I produce more than enough food. The other ideas are really good.

hi ,

there should be supermarkets , it should make one citizen content ,......

have a nice day

	07-06-2002 20:26									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan Another idea to reduce late game tedium (Firaxis should be seizing onto any and every idea to reduce late game tedium): An Empancipation / Civil Rights small wonder. When completed, all your captured Workers work just as fast as your home made ones. Suddenly half the late game Worker hassle.

I was thinking about something like this. Either add emancipation as a small wonder, or make a anti-slavery treaty that the UN can vote on. Thing is, there could be no more enslaving of foreign units, so they would have to either die or retreat when attacked.

Emancipation should give either a cultue or production boost (or both) to make up for the lost ability to slave workers.

As for the next step after bank, it should be the return of Stock Exchange or Mercantile Exchange. The existance of the Wall Street minor wonder does not preclude this. In the "real" world, we have Wall Street, and we also have exchanges in Philadelphia, Chicago, etc. etc.

Other late game ideas:
- Some sort of Economic victory condition would be welcome.
- More diplomacy options (perhaps enabled by building UN...) such as "Make peace with..." to stop a Civs war against your ally.
- More UN options. Vote to limit nuclear warheads; vote to limit pollution; vote to make certain units illegal. Breaking the treaties would result in ill will or open war from the other civs. Signatories to treaties would receive some bonus (happy citizens?)
- Canals!

I'm glad to see Firaxis is trying to relieve the Modern Age doldrums.

	07-06-2002 23:00									#23
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hi ,

Firaxis , one idea ,....please fix IFE , thank you in advance , ...its back

have a nice day

	09-06-2002 04:26									#24
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Sorry, panag, but what is IFE?

	09-06-2002 04:31									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai Sorry, panag, but what is IFE?

hi ,

Infinte Forest Explatation , ...

harvest forest , replant , reharvest , replant , and so on , but getting every time the shield bonus from it , ....

have a nice day / night

	09-06-2002 04:40									#26
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Well, haven't they fixed that in an earlier patch?

And yes, I have to get some sleep soon...

	09-06-2002 04:43									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai Well, haven't they fixed that in an earlier patch? And yes, I have to get some sleep soon...

hi ,

it came back to haunt us , because we have been bad boys , ...........

have a nice night , .....

	09-06-2002 07:33									#28
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quote: Originally posted by LordAzreal Quite a few ideas to throw around. How about improvements that actually improve the effectiveness of specialist citizens. They could be cheap as dirt to maintain. The Tax Office could improve taxmen (for obvious efficiency reasons). An entertainment centre/theatre could improve entertainers (obviously because it is a central location where people can watch entertainers perform). And schools (as in public/private grade/high schools) could improve scientists (as they would be better educated having grown up going to a local school). Add a new type of specialist (policeman) that reduces corruption/waste in the city, and add a Prison city improvement to increase its effect. The Alcatraz great wonder could then count as a prison in each city.

These are great ideas, and I have one more to add to this - "Manufacturers", a specialist that is worth 1 shield, and then, for symmetry reasons, change the manufacturing plant from a flat 50% increase to doubling the value of the "Manufacturer" specialists.

quote: Apart from that, here are a few more ideas off the top of my head. Definitely a modern coastal improvement that increases food further, cumulative with the harbour. Perhaps a "Fishery", or "Hatchery" or something. And another coastal improvement that could increase shield output (cumulative with the Offshore Platform anyway).

I disagree with this one. As bountiful as the sea is, we are still much more efficient at utilizing the land, so I think adding this much of a sea bonus would be too much.

quote: Farmland and Supermarkets should also make a return. The extra food and population could then help make the specialists more significant (especially if the improvement that increases their effect has been built).

Farms yes!

quote: An industrial/modern improved mine (mining complex maybe) that can only be built on hills/mountains, and possibly desert/tundra (grasslands/plains may have some small degree of mineral value for small scale mining, but large scale mining operations couldn't possibly be carried out in such areas). For the increased shields, you could need railroads on the square as well, and a "Rail Depot" Improvement (that will also increase commerce on railroad squares). Superhighways should also make a return, increasing the commerce of road/railroad squares. Cumulative with the Rail Depot on railroads.

This I have to disagree with. I think that rr sprawl is already a problem, and adding more of a commerce bonus will only make it worse. I would like to see some mechanism that makes it advantageous for the player to only build rr's between cities, not all over the place. And with this you could add a RR Depot improvement that adds commerce if you have rr's between your cities, but not a per tile bonus, and no superhighways (unless it is a Superhighway city improvement that doesn't clutter up the map).

	09-06-2002 10:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , Infinte Forest Explatation , ... harvest forest , replant , reharvest , replant , and so on , but getting every time the shield bonus from it , .... have a nice day / night

This was fixed in the 1.16f patch. Too many people bragged about doing it, so they fixed it.

This is copied from the 1.16f patch Changes:

quote: Changes v1.16f: Shield bonus from clearing forest can only be received once per game.

	09-06-2002 17:17									#30
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quote: Originally posted by kring This was fixed in the 1.16f patch. Too many people bragged about doing it, so they fixed it. This is copied from the 1.16f patch Changes:

hi ,

its back , ......... , .....unlimited , .......

have a nice day