08-06-2002 22:03									#31
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quote: Originally posted by deity Markus started the war in the previous session sinking those Ironclads. I didn't attack Markus, I attacked Winzity but have subsequently admitted that my objective was to disrupt Markus trade routes. I think it's a bit of an alliance between Winz and Markus who are militarily synchronising their efforts against one player. This is really more of a rule breaker in this no alliance game than anything I've done.

Oh, ya winzity's 3 horses are going to raze your civ to the ground LOL uhm where and when did winzity attack you? I can't stop him if he decides to get revenge.

quote: Also, how come you guys glean so much info about my military position, unit types etc? I'm not accussing you guys of cheating but you guys accussed me of breaking diplo rules etc.......

That the best you can come up with? You landed troops 2 turns in a row, that requires at least 4 transports using ship chaining. You sunk 2 of my ships with distinct subs. Its not hard to figure out that a significant portion of your 15 units are ships. Not only that half your cities are empty, one would think you have 1 defender per city left... So defended cities - undefended cities = #ships

quote: I wish some of the others players in the game would post here! Come on Berz and J23SE and Dangime - why so quiet? Markus and Winz will not stop if they manage to get past me. If they do stop Markus will just build a Spaceship. My tactics have reduced Markus max GNP per turn from his posted 1730AD rate to around 2000g, he said on icq to me. It is now 1756AD and Markus and my GNP are very close now...

ahahahahahahahaha. You have no friggen clue what GNP is do you? my civ has 10% luxeries that explains why my gnp is so low most of the game.

quote: I've also completely slowed down Markus tech rate and forced him into war mode earlier than his planned nuke attack. And of course his city builds are on hold.

1 turn a tech down to 90% of a tech in 1 turn.. Makes no real difference. in 4 turns i can redirect all caravans to another city and be back at full strength.

quote: All other plyers in the game can benefit from this. Why is Markus so p1ssed off? So vengeafull? Because I worked out a strat that atacked the basis of his super trade strat. Take note everyone. He'll think twice about who he trades with from now on.. LOL

LOL i just wonder how you knew i was sending stuff to spatana. Even though its my city now and only size 7 i still have size 13 trade routes to it. I hadn't played winzity before, i had assumed he was a lot stronger player.

BTW, i suppose its just coincidence that you tried to have the rules changed the turn before you attacked winzity so you could avoid rebellion?

	08-06-2002 22:24									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Budthepoet Id have to say I agree with Diety, if i had a boat of mine attacked, although this doesnt officially declare war, i dont care if its dead or not. Unless that other player, messages me and tells me it was an accident, Im going to war with him. And Winzity, if you were some one elses little slave puppet for trade, of course id be going for the weaker of the 2 too stop what i saw as a threat. Deity in my opinion you did well, but markus seems to be doing better. You made correct choices i think. just Not following all the way through with it, although im sure it just happens. Markus is a damn good player.

LOL those ships where parked outside certain cities.. He was going to use them to attack so i sunk them.

Basically my income + science where greater then all other players combined. Most of my cities had size 27 trade routes and from what i heard from dagmine and bezerker thiers topped out at 11 or 12.

	09-06-2002 15:31									#33
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Look at an earlier save and you'll see that my Ironclads were on sentry duty only. You miscalculated Markuds amnd actually started this war. I was toying with the idea of attacking but thought it would slow down my turns too much - to the point of rebellion by the other civ After all it IS a diplo.....

But once you attacked the clads my mind was made up!

And when I say GNP I mean exactly the same as you, ie total income on 100% tax less cost of imp's.

After my attack I'm about 400g per turn behind you rather than 1100g, so that justifies my attack

	09-06-2002 15:34									#34
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It was quite obvious that southern Spain was where you sent caras. For the entire first half of the game the map bounced to Spain on your turn.. It's not rocket science!

	09-06-2002 15:40									#35
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Quote from Markus "BTW, i suppose its just coincidence that you tried to have the rules changed the turn before you attacked winzity so you could avoid rebellion?"

You know perfectly well that I was happy with the rule but I wanted the new players in the game to be aware of it. I was going to stick with the rule even if they voted against it because I knew you'd make a stink here; so I revolted in a non oedo year from Democ so I could attack Winz.... What's the problem? I didn't get another civ to ask me to attack Winz and I didn't want the rule changed. You know that.

	09-06-2002 21:39									#36
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quote: Originally posted by deity Look at an earlier save and you'll see that my Ironclads were on sentry duty only. You miscalculated Markuds amnd actually started this war. I was toying with the idea of attacking but thought it would slow down my turns too much - to the point of rebellion by the other civ After all it IS a diplo..... But once you attacked the clads my mind was made up! And when I say GNP I mean exactly the same as you, ie total income on 100% tax less cost of imp's. After my attack I'm about 400g per turn behind you rather than 1100g, so that justifies my attack

I am not stupid, its virtually impossible for you to be making more then 800 gold. And you attacked winzity not me.. we both know attacking me would have been useless as i converted city squares to mountains. You wouldn't have taken one city.

	09-06-2002 21:41									#37
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quote: Originally posted by deity Quote from Markus "BTW, i suppose its just coincidence that you tried to have the rules changed the turn before you attacked winzity so you could avoid rebellion?" You know perfectly well that I was happy with the rule but I wanted the new players in the game to be aware of it. I was going to stick with the rule even if they voted against it because I knew you'd make a stink here; so I revolted in a non oedo year from Democ so I could attack Winz.... What's the problem? I didn't get another civ to ask me to attack Winz and I didn't want the rule changed. You know that.

what new players?

	10-06-2002 04:35									#38
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quote: Originally posted by markusf what new players?

Dank, J23SE, Konrad; plus others in the game like Berz had forgotten that rule.

So it was a reminder. I didn't want to go ahead and revolt if no one else did! But was happy with the original rule. Yes, I brought it up then cos I was about to revolt. I was not planning to change it. Be fair here Markus - you know.

	10-06-2002 04:40									#39
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Woopsy.

Spanish Onions anyone...?

	10-06-2002 04:46									#40
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quote: Originally posted by atawa You could take over the rest of the island though

Actually I did take 6 cities, most of the island. But once their secret alliance kicked in it was 2 against one.
Winz took back two cities and Markus took two and killed two. My second invasion failed because of a distraction at home w! This meant I mis-calculated the distance to move a transport - I was one square off, so instead of landing the transport in the city to then move troops the trans wasa next to the city so I had to unload single move troops Otherwise I would have ensured more cities got destroyed.... drat!
My third invasion was stuffed because Markus troops were all over Spanish Onion by then.

	10-06-2002 05:22									#41
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Listen everyone - here is the truth about Winzity!

Winz did the same thing or much worse in our previous game.

He was sending troops to attack Makeo but Makeo's ships were in the way. So, I agreed he could land his troops in DEITIAN land for safety. Makeo then bribes all his ships!!

So his troops have no where to go. They are sitting next to my cities - big, nasty vet dumbos next to my warriored and phalanxed cities...

After it goes pear-shaped for Winzity he blames me for everything! Then, next turn he attacks all my cities with those dumbos!

He made the decisions and I got blamed and SNEAK attacked of the worst order. Basically he was so upset his plan to attack Makeo failed he vented his anger on me. I got stomped on. So I got mad, took back all my cities next turn and switched allegiances - Makeo and I were both after Greek Winzity blood! He quit the game.

But he hasn't quit the new one because his big hero Markus *will* save the day as John Wayne rides into town....

See - I owed Winzity him that

Please Makeo, can you verify this? I gave you my map after the attack in that previous game but don't have that save anymore.

	10-06-2002 05:26									#42
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I was in that game and things did happen the way deity describes them. I enjoyed watching watching Greek and Aztec triemes sailing past my coast to attack each other.

	10-06-2002 05:47									#43
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quote: Originally posted by deity Actually I did take 6 cities, most of the island. But once their secret alliance kicked in it was 2 against one. Winz took back two cities and Markus took two and killed two. My second invasion failed because of a distraction at home w! This meant I mis-calculated the distance to move a transport - I was one square off, so instead of landing the transport in the city to then move troops the trans wasa next to the city so I had to unload single move troops Otherwise I would have ensured more cities got destroyed.... drat! My third invasion was stuffed because Markus troops were all over Spanish Onion by then.

It was no allaince,winzity couldn't even defend himself let alone kill a single attacker. I am not that stupid that i will let someone who wants to attack me get that close to me. I landed 32 units that turn and wiped your invasion force from the map. unlike some raving lunitics i protect those less fortunate from power hungry monsters.

	10-06-2002 05:57									#44
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Markusf "I fight for truth ,justice and the Apolyton way"

I think it is good you came to a non allies aid so quickly

	10-06-2002 06:00									#45
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quote: Originally posted by markusf unlike some raving lunitics i protect those less fortunate from power hungry monsters.

How very George-Witless-Bush of you, Markus.

	10-06-2002 09:34									#46
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either way, i applaud Deity for disrupting Markus's trade empire....pretty soon were going to be calling diplo games "alliances incognito" besides, in the real world, countries went to war over trade all the time.....

and if someone sunk my boats....regardless if i had them stationed off their coast, i would consider that an act of war!

	10-06-2002 11:54									#47
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Thanks War.

Actually the ships were not stationed off his coast. They were in the middle of the equivalent of the Atlantic Ocean, a good 6 squares or more away I think.

	10-06-2002 14:36									#48
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How do you diplogamers draw the line between explicit and tacit alliances. It is quite conceivable that a certain course of action could be in the interests of 2 players and that a tacit alliance could be sustainable as long as those interests are aligned. But whereabouts does the line get crossed?

	10-06-2002 17:01									#49
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That's the whole point, Doc. Alliances might be banned from the game, but they're still put in place. They're just unofficial. But they're still, effectively, alliances. There's no fine line. Diplo games are full of such, um, nuances. In the same way that diplo games are never war-free zones. Players just have to be a tad creative when it comes to justifying war. Look at the waffle being peddled in this thread.

	10-06-2002 17:11									#50
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Look at the waffle being peddled in this thread.

Indeed. I guess you can never tell whether an alliance was actually tacit or one player said to another "hey, those onions look tasty, half for me and half for you"

	10-06-2002 17:15									#51
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Half for me and half for you actually means half for you now all for me later