08-06-2002 18:22									#1
	How does the AI handle multiple strategy units? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

This has bugged me for a while, and I'm close to an answer. However still one thing remains to sort out...


Lets take the Rifleman as an example of a multiple strategy unit (just to make it a little less abstract).

Rifleman is set both to be Offenseive and Defensive.
This means that the BIC has two Rifleman units in it: One offensive and one defensive. When you play you only see one of the units, namely the offensive. However, the AI sees both and builds both of the units.


So long that's it idf the AI need an defensive unit it will build a defensive Rifleman. Now to what I haven't sorted out yet:

What happens if you destroy say 50% of an AI's defensive Riflemen, but don't kill a Single offensive?

Will it use the offensive Riflemen as a replacement for the defensive, or will it Keep all of them on offense, even thou it needs more defense?
Have anyone noticed any strange behavior from the AI when deling with multiple strategy units, anmd the AI have lost a great deal of them?

	08-06-2002 18:51									#2
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I wasn't aware that outwardly-identical units such as the rifleman may be programmed to primarily serve as offensive or defensive units. If so, it's... disappointing.

In most of my games, riflemen are defensive. I'd think it would be very hard to keep track of one particular enemy unit's behavior.

	09-06-2002 14:01									#3
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Yes, it's hard. However, I'm 100% sure that both units exists in saves.

	09-06-2002 18:51									#4
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Gramphos, can you share as to where do these beliefs come from?

I have been attacked by lots of AI Infantry in 1.21f, but it also uses the units defensively. It's so good to no longer see Longbowmen from an AI without Oil.

	09-06-2002 22:16									#5
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It come from me working with my multitool. I was testing out different things, and checked on some (Roman) cities what units were in them.

One particular city had a big number of Legionaries. I then changed to the units tab to see if I could get more info about these units. So I set it to filer for Legionaries in that city, and I only found about a third of the units listed on the city tab. I stated to investigate why (thinking it was a bug with my tool) when I realizxed that the missing units were another Legionarry type (in the bottom of the list)

I compared the types, and the difference was that the first had it strategy set to offensive and the second were defensive.


As I said I don't know how the AI acts if all defensive units are killed. however, I know that the only units not in cities were offensive.

	09-06-2002 22:36									#6
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Now this does then raise a very interesting point, as you said in your first post, as to using units on both purposes. Wish Soren came here.

	09-06-2002 22:42									#7
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Do yuo think it can have any connenction with this?

	10-06-2002 13:50									#8
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Uhmm I read that thread, yes. You know, I really believe this is something we can hardly solve without a post from Firaxis. In case it is so, that's a huge AI weakness. It surely should be ready to use the same unit on both purposes depending on the situation.

Soren, plz post.

	11-06-2002 03:25									#9
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Another issue is of the upgrading. I think that both units will upgrade to the one wlagged offensive (if multiple strategies for that unit as well)

Soren, where are you?

	12-06-2002 01:16									#10
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hi ,

Gramphos , Solver , some players have put as barbarian units rifleman , advanced as infantry , and behold , the AI seems to use them very nice , ...

have a nice day

	12-06-2002 02:19									#11
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To answer your question... when I added some offensive flags to some traditionally defensive units, I found that the AI would attack with massed stacks of 'defenders' (infantry and mech infantry) in addition to 'attackers.'

I also found that they would frequently ABANDON their cities, leaving them utterly defenseless, if such flags were set. And yes, they were set to offense AND defense.

	12-06-2002 02:40									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Nakar Gabab To answer your question... when I added some offensive flags to some traditionally defensive units, I found that the AI would attack with massed stacks of 'defenders' (infantry and mech infantry) in addition to 'attackers.' I also found that they would frequently ABANDON their cities, leaving them utterly defenseless, if such flags were set. And yes, they were set to offense AND defense.

Now that is interesting. Pretty much answers the question I guess. It also answers the question of why the AI only leaves a couple of defenders in its cities to oppose my stack of 12 invading tanks whilst marching around in my territory with a stack of 50 some infantry. By the time the AI's attacking stack gets in range of one of my cities I've already taken most of his...

"Too easy." - Any ut 'bot.

Cheers,

	12-06-2002 13:47									#13
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Growing even more sure we need a post from Soren .

	12-06-2002 17:32									#14
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I've seen the AI use them in both offensive and defensive roles. I would assume this would be based on their attack/defense ratings. Or perhaps each unit has a predetermined method of how they are used by the AI.

	12-06-2002 23:42									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Nakar Gabab To answer your question... when I added some offensive flags to some traditionally defensive units, I found that the AI would attack with massed stacks of 'defenders' (infantry and mech infantry) in addition to 'attackers.' I also found that they would frequently ABANDON their cities, leaving them utterly defenseless, if such flags were set. And yes, they were set to offense AND defense.

hi ,

okay , seen that , but why will the AI not put units on more squares , ....and why will the AI , when he comes , if he comes (!) , always put these large , giant stacks , that need like 2 screens to read , .....

have a nice day

	13-06-2002 14:27									#16
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , Gramphos , Solver , some players have put as barbarian units rifleman , advanced as infantry , and behold , the AI seems to use them very nice , ... have a nice day

Does it use them for defense as well?

(Offense is always the primary flag (if set))

	13-06-2002 14:29									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Nakar Gabab To answer your question... when I added some offensive flags to some traditionally defensive units, I found that the AI would attack with massed stacks of 'defenders' (infantry and mech infantry) in addition to 'attackers.' I also found that they would frequently ABANDON their cities, leaving them utterly defenseless, if such flags were set. And yes, they were set to offense AND defense.

The question I get her: do you have a save? I want to check if it uses the units which afre defensive in the offense, or only the offensive ones.

	13-06-2002 14:57									#18
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Gramphos: I have just defeated Babylon at a game where its army consisted of Riflemen, then all upgraded to Infantry (mass upgrade!), as a result, 150 Infantry. I had 100 Infantry, and some other forces. After I attacked and beat the attacking infantry Babylon brought, they had about 45 remaining, and those stay in cities.

	13-06-2002 15:38									#19
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Yep, as a modder, this is one of the questions that still baffles me and can really affect a game if units are given 'bad' strategies.

Firstly in answer to Gramphos' question above.

Units labelled with the defensive tag will often be seen on the offensive. Pikeman and Spearman are the prime examples of this in patch 1.21 as most of the defensive units further up the tech tree have been given the offensive tag too. However, by pikemen and spearmen being offensive, i mean wandering through my land while at war and pillaging my resources; they don't actually attack cities..

Now.

This brings me to what i think the offensive and defensive tags actually represent. I think offensive 'generally' means whether a unit will initiate an attack, not so much whether the unit will be used in an offensive manner. In previous patches, one would always witness infantry invasions even though they were only tagged defensive, however, most of the actual unit/city attacking was done by cavalry. This is how it should be, but since some of the defensive units have now been tagged offensive too, we are seeing a whole stream of soley rilfemen/infantry/mechinf stacks invading and attacking cities.

This isn't an effective AI strategy as these units are too slow in the industrial era when railroads are being built. This results in easy pickings for the human player's artillery-unit combinations and will usually only serve to bolster their units to elite status. The speed of cavalry/tanks is required to give the human player a troublesome time.

Much to my annoyance, first impressions with the double tagged units in 1.21f were very little numbers of the effective, fast moving cavalry/tanks/modern armour attack units and too much of the rifleman/infantry/mechinf defence units.

Way to solve this. Simple.

Remove all defensive tags from 'defensive' units. You should still see them used 'offensively', not for unit/city attacking, but rather pillaging as was evident in pre-1.21f games.

I think they primarily introduced this feature to help solve the useless American F15 by allowing it to attack and defend and for allowing offensive naval units to carry missiles. And YES, i think Gramphos is almost certainly correct when he states that the AI has two types of the double tagged unit in the build queue, the offensive one and the defensive one.

Hope this information helps.

DOC

Last edited by =DrJambo= on 13-06-2002 at 15:43

	13-06-2002 17:43									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos Does it use them for defense as well? (Offense is always the primary flag (if set))

hi ,

yes and no , it depends , ....

have a nice day

	13-06-2002 17:45									#21
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hi ,

Gramphos , ... is it possible that the AI uses a unit on second as defensive , next minute as offensive , , ...

have a nice day

	13-06-2002 20:48									#22
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I don't think the AI can switch between offensive and defensive as panag suggests.

At one point during war, I parked a mix of mech inf and tanks just outside a large (20) AI city. I could not attack during that turn. It was obvious that this was the only city was going to be attacked during my next turn.

Instead of fortifying the city, several AI infantry ran past my tanks on the RR (getting wounded in the process) in an attempt to attack one of the relatively undefended cities that I had taken from the AI in a former turn. They could not reach my city in that turn, but it was obvious what their objective was for the next turn. The effect was that they were easy pickings for my tanks that just got healed at another nearby city.

I think there are two problems here. First, the AI infantry would have served better defending the city that they were in. Secondly, if they really insisted that they had to leave the city, they could have taken a route that would not have subjected them to the pot shots taken by my tank and mech inf stack. The land was covered with RR, that they still controlled. They could have gotten to the same end tile without getting shot at.

	14-06-2002 01:57									#23
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , Gramphos , ... is it possible that the AI uses a unit on second as defensive , next minute as offensive , , ... have a nice day

That's what I want to find out.

	14-06-2002 02:33									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos That's what I want to find out.

hi ,

got a game mailed , sjee , ...okay , example ;

two times barb infantry on a hill , fortified , near a river , both are under siege from to groups of veteran infantry , group one 10 strong , BANG , the barb infantry goes to regular , all 10 death , .......

next hill , BANG , BANG , barb infantry death , result , one dead and one elite , .....

same turn , can some-one please get an explanation on this , ....

have a nice day

	14-06-2002 03:00									#25
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DrJambo, did you say remove defensive flags from defensive units? Was that a typo?

	14-06-2002 14:30									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos That's what I want to find out.

Evidence: I have landed two transports of Tanks and Mech Inf on the Roman island, with the aim of denying them resources and crippling economy, not actually taking cities. The moment I landed I saw some Infantry running around, and I even had to use my Marines to get a landing location. When I ended my turn, I saw all the Infantry of Rome I could see (I had ships around, too, so could see quite some) running into the Roman cities.

I believe this has to deal with comparative stengths. Rome: 3 Bombers, 2 Fighters, 15 Legionaries (it's Moden Age!), 42 Infantry, 1 Musketman.

Me, England: 110 Infantry, 20 Mech Inf, 40 Tanks, 35 Bombers, 8 Subs, 60 Marines (slightly improved in my mod), 2 Carriers and 4 Battleships. This is my main army. While I only landed 16 units on Roman island, I plan to bring 16 or 32 more.

So, maybe Rome knew I'm just going to overrun them completely if I attack with all my power (also allied with Greeks, huge navy), they would have no chance, so they put all they can to defense, knowing there's no reason for his Infantry to attack Tanks or Mech Inf?

	14-06-2002 14:39									#27
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panag,
that's totally random, and has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. (At least I think so)

Solver, interesting. I don't know about that. I still want a word from Soren.

	14-06-2002 14:42									#28
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Gramphos, just thinking, you can make about the same situation as me with the MultiTool. Give yourself a huge army, give another civ an Island with a small and weak army, land them, see what they do.

I also want a word from Soren, but I'm not sure if he has been reading this. He usually browses Civ3-General, as we can see.

	15-06-2002 00:00									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos panag, that's totally random, and has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. (At least I think so) Solver, interesting. I don't know about that. I still want a word from Soren.

hi ,

Gramphos , is this not a good proof of it , ....

what is funny is that sometimes there seems to be a difference between units , ....the same unit , and yet one seem's to defensive , the other offensive , ...
its like sometimes the same unit "switches" its attack with defense value's , ....

also intresting , it seems to hapen only with certain units , ...

and what is also intresting is that sometimes it happens with units that have no "known" defense bonus , in other words , out-side a city , out-side a fort , ...no hill , .....

and what is intresting is that when you have two units , or more , at the same spot , like the example before , yet two different outcomes , ..... okay that is normal , ..but to lose 10 units on the same type of enemy unit , ..... , that is a bit strange .

have a nice day