09-06-2002 03:27									#91
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ottok, yes?

	09-06-2002 03:30									#92
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse ottok, yes?

hi ,

what did you do to him , .....the poor guy aint coming back , .....

have a nice day

	09-06-2002 04:06									#93
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panag, how do you know ottok?

and panag, they have no idea what grapes of wrath is.

they don't get your lebanon humor. you know they are too dumb

	09-06-2002 04:19									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov panag, how do you know ottok? and panag, they have no idea what grapes of wrath is. they don't get your lebanon humor. you know they are too dumb

hi ,

Ottok , well everyone talks about that guy , but what did he do wrong , .....what , .....

dumb and dumber , .....G-D must love crazy people , that's why he make's so many of them , .....

have a nice , ......night

	09-06-2002 09:55									#95
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KH, you saw the clearguidance forum. You should realize that these people don't think like we do. If the Israelis were dealing with Canadians then what you say would make sense. But the mentality that the Muslims are brought up to have is one of "us vs. them" and every victory is an occasion to praise Allah and every defeat is a reason to fight harder. It is, in its fundamentalist form, inherently evil and destructive.

	09-06-2002 23:57									#96
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Two things I don't get:

1) How do we know the Palestinians will be satisfied with anything Israel could hope to offer? After all, there was terrorism before the 1967 war too.

2) Why the assumption that Palestinian violence is inevitable? After all, I've heard nary a peep from the Knin Serbs since the Croats asserted authority, and even less from the Baltic Russians, Transylvanian Hungarians, etc.

	10-06-2002 00:03									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Natan Two things I don't get: 1) How do we know the Palestinians will be satisfied with anything Israel could hope to offer? After all, there was terrorism before the 1967 war too. 2) Why the assumption that Palestinian violence is inevitable? After all, I've heard nary a peep from the Knin Serbs since the Croats asserted authority, and even less from the Baltic Russians, Transylvanian Hungarians, etc.

hi ,

the pals are only satisfied , with two things , one , the destrucion of our land ; two , when all the Jews are dead , ...

as for the second part , they aint "hot news" , so the world does not care , ..

have a nice day

	10-06-2002 00:58									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X KH, you saw the clearguidance forum. You should realize that these people don't think like we do. If the Israelis were dealing with Canadians then what you say would make sense. But the mentality that the Muslims are brought up to have is one of "us vs. them" and every victory is an occasion to praise Allah and every defeat is a reason to fight harder. It is, in its fundamentalist form, inherently evil and destructive.

This is a polite way of saying that they're uncivilized brutes who can't be reasoned with...

The clearguidance forum was filled with nutjobs. So's Newsmax...

	10-06-2002 01:02									#99
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no , not that cultural relativism again, Krazyhorse.

and don't ****ing "racist" me. It's nurture, not nature.

	10-06-2002 01:22									#100
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What cultural relativism thing, Dalgetti? Way to latch on to a buzzword that's been floating around here lately and squeeze all meaning out of it...

	10-06-2002 01:57									#101
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Yeah . It was all around the place .

So, don't you think that they are uncivilized brutes by supporting these kinds of actions? Poverty cannot be blamed , As people supporting these views come from countries rich and poor alike. Only religious extremism. People kill their wives and sisters because they "dishonored the family" . That happens in countries rich and poor as well . Do you see something wrong with this picture?

	10-06-2002 02:15									#102
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I've already stated, NUMEROUS TIMES, that most Islamic countries have fundamental societal problems, sweetheart. That doesn't give you the right to claim that they're unfit negotiating partners. Especially not you, in Israel, who are hardly paragons of Western democracy, and have your own problems to deal with. It also doesn't mean that you get to take actions based on the idea that they're unreasoning animals who exist only because of your good graces. Your country's committed unceasing provocation of the palestinians for the past 35 years by building Jewish settlements, and seem as uninterested in a final peace as they are. You're playing tinpot colonizers like you're still living in the 17th century, and if you want me to take your intentions seriously you'll stop immediately. The settlements do nothing to advance the cause of peace, and are instead signals that your goal is the final annexation of Palestine. Your government contains (but is not necessarily run by) those who want to physically toss out the Palestinians for more lebensraum for the Jews, and it seems to be fashionable among Israelis that the idea of Eretz Yisrael somehow translates into a real God-given right to other people's land.

	10-06-2002 03:07									#103
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oh ****. I'll have to quote and reply now.

quote: I've already stated, NUMEROUS TIMES, that most Islamic countries have fundamental societal problems, sweetheart.

quote: That doesn't give you the right to claim that they're unfit negotiating partners. Especially not you, in Israel, who are hardly paragons of Western democracy, and have your own problems to deal with.

Everyone has problems to deal with . Most of the problems of our society directly linked to the conflict.

quote: It also doesn't mean that you get to take actions based on the idea that they're unreasoning animals who exist only because of your good graces.

I've never claimed that. sweatheart.

quote: Your country's committed unceasing provocation of the palestinians for the past 35 years by building Jewish settlements,

that implies that the conflict has started and was all about Jewish settlements in the west bank , which is wrong.

quote: and seem as uninterested in a final peace as they are

well, that's a bit difficult to understand. The Israeli government has to offer it's citizens great living conditions , and the state would be ranking amongst the world's best without the conflict, and it's military spending . With most of the aquisiton being made in the US , and the government running the weapons factories that are in Israel ,this heardly can be connected with some kind of plot of generals that have close ties with defence contractors.All palestinian leaders can offer to their people is 3rd world economy.

quote: You're playing tinpot colonizers like you're still living in the 17th century, and if you want me to take your intentions seriously you'll stop immediately.

I was always against settlements amidst the palestinians. But once again , the hatred dates to before the existance of an Israeli state , to the late 20's , and targetting the settlements as one of the main reasons of the conflict , is wrong.

quote: The settlements do nothing to advance the cause of peace, and are instead signals that your goal is the final annexation of Palestine.

quote: Your government contains (but is not necessarily run by) those who want to physically toss out the Palestinians for more lebensraum for the Jews,

interior politics. These parties take around 6% of the parliament, which is a relatively low number , considering the voting system in Israel which is relative and state-wide . And as you've said,they do not determin politics

quote: and it seems to be fashionable among Israelis that the idea of Eretz Yisrael somehow translates into a real God-given right to other people's land.

well, since I lived most of my life here , I consider this to be "my land". God-given right? bah. You obviously don't know how MOST people here think.

	10-06-2002 04:51									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti oh ****. I'll have to quote and reply now. Everyone has problems to deal with . Most of the problems of our society directly linked to the conflict. I've never claimed that. sweatheart. that implies that the conflict has started and was all about Jewish settlements in the west bank , which is wrong. well, that's a bit difficult to understand. The Israeli government has to offer it's citizens great living conditions , and the state would be ranking amongst the world's best without the conflict, and it's military spending . With most of the aquisiton being made in the US , and the government running the weapons factories that are in Israel ,this heardly can be connected with some kind of plot of generals that have close ties with defence contractors.All palestinian leaders can offer to their people is 3rd world economy. I was always against settlements amidst the palestinians. But once again , the hatred dates to before the existance of an Israeli state , to the late 20's , and targetting the settlements as one of the main reasons of the conflict , is wrong. interior politics. These parties take around 6% of the parliament, which is a relatively low number , considering the voting system in Israel which is relative and state-wide . And as you've said,they do not determin politics well, since I lived most of my life here , I consider this to be "my land". God-given right? bah. You obviously don't know how MOST people here think.

hi ,

Dal , we really should get his but over , ....then KH can learn the real deal , ......

just imagine his face on a tour near the North border , ... , ...at night , when the rockets start to fly over the border , ......

KH , its nice to sit in Montreal , even nicer in Tel - Aviv , but imagine , just try to imagine , everyone knows someone who is killed , or wounded , everyone , even the the guys in the special forces are scared , scared because any moment can be there last one , just imagine living with that fear , 24 / 24 , 7 / 7 , .....just try to imagine it , for one hour , ....

it just aint fun , .....and yet we try to get on with our lives , try to build family's , try to build a "home" , we try to go out and have a good time , ....but every single day we are reminded of the fact that any moment can be our last , in the best case , in the worst case you end in a hospital , with bolt's , nut's or spikes in our body's , not being able to walk or to go to the restroom alone , ...

unless one has been true it himself , one can not imagine the fear and the horror , .......

have a nice day / night

	10-06-2002 09:32									#105
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hi ,

panag, it's nice to sit in Jerusalem

but to see real deal go to Jenin

stay there for 30 years

maybe you'll see other side

unless one has been through it himself, one cannot imagine the fear and the horror

especially when casualty rates run 10 times higher on that side of the line

dal, they may not determine policies, but the fact is that your government includes them. That's a choice that Likud made, and it was a despicable one. Your government's in bed with the extremists, of which the oft-mourned former tourism minister was a prime example...

	10-06-2002 09:44									#106
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse hi , panag, it's nice to sit in Jerusalem but to see real deal go to Jenin stay there for 30 years maybe you'll see other side unless one has been through it himself, one cannot imagine the fear and the horror especially when casualty rates run 10 times higher on that side of the line dal, they may not determine policies, but the fact is that your government includes them. That's a choice that Likud made, and it was a despicable one. Your government's in bed with the extremists, of which the oft-mourned former tourism minister was a prime example...

Your analogy is unfair, KH. Every Israel is in fear of death. Only terrorists are in fear in the West Bank.

The lack of hope in the palestinian areas is caused by the terrorists who make Israel insecure. There can be no independent Palestine without terrorism ending.

Remember, the currect terrorism began when Arafat formed Fatah some 30+ years ago. There is a solution to terrorism in the area; and it is a obvious solution.

	10-06-2002 10:24									#107
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quote: Only terrorists are in fear in the West Bank

There have been more civilians killed in the West bank and Gaza in the last 20(?) months of violence than there have been in Israel proper, Ned.

The fact that most of those were probably killed "by mistake" is scarce comfort to their families...

	10-06-2002 22:09									#108
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse hi , panag, it's nice to sit in Jerusalem but to see real deal go to Jenin stay there for 30 years maybe you'll see other side unless one has been through it himself, one cannot imagine the fear and the horror especially when casualty rates run 10 times higher on that side of the line dal, they may not determine policies, but the fact is that your government includes them. That's a choice that Likud made, and it was a despicable one. Your government's in bed with the extremists, of which the oft-mourned former tourism minister was a prime example...

hi ,

are you going to tell veterans of the war in Lebanon and the liberated land what is going on , ........sjee , KH , come over and you shall see , from the ground , worser the Jenin , first stop , members of the PA and the Knesset , the the hospital , next day we shall drive you around , .....and ya better bring something for you stomach , .......

and BTW , if you have the guts to climb on a tank , as a terrorist with a molotov cocktail , and you fall of the tank , under its tracks , then whose fault is that , .....

do you have any idea howmany snipers should from the liberated area's into lets say Jerushalaim , ....and kill people , just for fun , pals , american's , european's , all races , all religion's , .....how many end up in hospital because of that , everyday , you dont have a clue , ....

its nice to say , you are evil , this is wrong , you should do that , when you are sitting behind a comp in Montreal , half-way around the world , ....

an other example , do you know what it is to wear 50 pounds of protection equipment , all-day long , ....try it , ...it aint fun , .....

allas KH , come over and see for yourself , ...

have a nice day

	11-06-2002 02:14									#109
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: Only terrorists are in fear in the West Bank There have been more civilians killed in the West bank and Gaza in the last 20(?) months of violence than there have been in Israel proper, Ned. The fact that most of those were probably killed "by mistake" is scarce comfort to their families...

KrazyHorse, Assuming this is true, it illustrates the fact that Israel is literally trying to avoid civilian casualties while the opposite is true with respect to Palestinian terrorists.

	11-06-2002 02:27									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Ned KrazyHorse, Assuming this is true, it illustrates the fact that Israel is literally trying to avoid civilian casualties while the opposite is true with respect to Palestinian terrorists.

hi ,

wrong , there are more civilians being killed and injured inside the "old" (pre1967) borders then in the liberated areas !

the numbers of the liberated areas are high , BUT , lets no forget , and its just checked (!) , that in the numbers there are also the pals who are killed by pals , the pals that are killed by the shelling from libanon and egypt , if a bomber dies in Tel-Aviv , this counts as a dead in his place of origin , .....as a civilian , ......... , ..

actually there is not a sinsle other country in the world they are so good protected then in Israel , ........

have a nice day

	11-06-2002 05:07									#111
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panag is correct.

The number of Palestinian casualties includes all terrorists, terrorist suspects, martyrs, and even unrelated deaths.

	11-06-2002 05:12									#112
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Israeli sources say, that around 20% of the official casualty number, are probably completely unrelated to terror.

That's 20% of 2000 (?). That's 400 people. Close to the number of Israeli casualties.

	11-06-2002 06:11									#113
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'Israeli sources say'...

If you can find trustworthy sources that claim the same, then you have a point.

	11-06-2002 08:19									#114
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Israeli sources aren't trustworthy.

Now subtract Israeli military fatalities (like most of the ones who died on the bus attack, and 7/10 killed in sniper attack on a checkpoint a few months ago), and you're probably (IMO, very likely) left with a somewhat higher body count among Pal civilians than among Israeli civilians.

Don't expect me to feel sympathy for the Israelis in this but not for the Palestinians. Unfortunately, the two hve nobody but themselves to blame...

	11-06-2002 22:37									#115
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Israeli sources aren't trustworthy. Now subtract Israeli military fatalities (like most of the ones who died on the bus attack, and 7/10 killed in sniper attack on a checkpoint a few months ago), and you're probably (IMO, very likely) left with a somewhat higher body count among Pal civilians than among Israeli civilians. Don't expect me to feel sympathy for the Israelis in this but not for the Palestinians. Unfortunately, the two hve nobody but themselves to blame...

hi ,

well if they are so wrong , come over and check for yourself , ....sjee , .....and tell us how we have to count to , ...

no one wants your sympathy , because you dont want to listen anyway , ...

have a nice day

	11-06-2002 22:38									#116
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu 'Israeli sources say'... If you can find trustworthy sources that claim the same, then you have a point.

hi ,

so now all of a sudden we are untrustworthy , ....strange , very strange , then again , our eyes , hear's and brains see a lot of strange things , .....

have a nice day

	11-06-2002 22:40									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov panag is correct. The number of Palestinian casualties includes all terrorists, terrorist suspects, martyrs, and even unrelated deaths.

hi ,

including the ones they kill themselves , like the two plas the killed today , no court , no nothing , just hearsay , ........and then people react strange when we want to stop that , .....

what is this world coming to , ......

have a nice day

	11-06-2002 22:50									#118
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CG - you already failed miserably to prove Israeli resources to be untrustworthy.

	12-06-2002 03:22									#119
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hi ,

panag, you need to get something substantive to say

until then I'm going to be just the latest to put you on ignore

because it's not worthwhile putting brain sweat into deciphering you when there's nothing there in the first place

	12-06-2002 04:50									#120
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Failed miserable? I thought I proved it quite substantially...

Well, as far as you can prove a negative. It's up to you to actually show proof of the things you claim... And Israeli sources just doesn't constitute proof.