10-06-2002 03:22									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Space05us by the time the rules are made everyone will understand, it's not explainable it just happens.

True, lets start with a minimum of rules and make new ones when needed.

	10-06-2002 07:10									#32
	Full PM-box? Change here!

BURN IT! (sorry I only read the 1st 10 posts so i may have missed some important changes)

It's way too specific and strict. Can't we trust the peopls and our leaders to be able to function with just a basic understanding of how it works?

BURN IT!!

I hereby announce the founding of the AAACC3 (AAAC of Civ 3)!

	10-06-2002 07:13									#33
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It's not an issue of trust, it's just so we have a well established means of getting things done when there are discrepancies. Otherwise rules and such will be very arbitrary.

	10-06-2002 07:14									#34
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ooops...looks like space05us has already made all my arguments...

punkbadass2000: Even if a constitution is technically malleable, it has the psychological effect of decreasing the popularity of rule changes.

BURN IT! (maybe I should add that to my sig)

	10-06-2002 07:16									#35
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Look at the civ2 apolyton game (without constitution) and the civfanatics civ2 game (with very detailed constitution) and see the difference! I haven't looked at the cfc one much, but there are tons of topped threads (last time a looked), overorganization, and an overall lowered level of fun!

	10-06-2002 07:25									#36
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 ooops...looks like space05us has already made all my arguments... punkbadass2000: Even if a constitution is technically malleable, it has the psychological effect of decreasing the popularity of rule changes.

That's really more of a problem with the people than with the constitution itself, IMO.

	10-06-2002 07:27									#37
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SO??? Do we go out of our way to FORCE the people into something??? Is a constitution more important than the people????

	10-06-2002 07:29									#38
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 SO??? Do we go out of our way to FORCE the people into something??? Is a constitution more important than the people????

I find this statement amusing, given your stance on the save game.

	10-06-2002 07:36									#39
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What do you mean? Supporting harsh penalties for playing ahead is common sense! I say that if it's a newbie they should be given a second chance, but if anyone knowingly ruins the game somewhat, they should be punished!

	10-06-2002 07:36									#40
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The Consitution is for the benefit of the people. It clearly states the rules of the game, preventing people from breaking laws unbeknowst to them. Otherwise anyone could do anything. You propose that no one should be able to play ahead and should be banned if they do. How do you propose to make this law without constitution? Would prefer if we called it a Code of Laws?

	10-06-2002 07:47									#41
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You would be foolish to start this without some sort of agreed upon rules of conduct. Some sort of primary organizational document. No you cant trust people, trust me (lol) I know. When someone screws up you will want to say "You agreed to these rules, you violated this rule, sorry buddy but according to the rules youre out."

The bottom line is even if these rules are 'obvious' and 'common sense' to you, they might not be so 'obvious' and 'common sense' to someone else. You need to codify them, even if it is all stuff everyone agrees is common sense, you need a document.

	10-06-2002 07:51									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras You would be foolish to start this without some sort of agreed upon rules of conduct. Some sort of primary organizational document. No you cant trust people, trust me (lol) I know. When someone screws up you will want to say "You agreed to these rules, you violated this rule, sorry buddy but according to the rules youre out." The bottom line is even if these rules are 'obvious' and 'common sense' to you, they might not be so 'obvious' and 'common sense' to someone else. You need to codify them, even if it is all stuff everyone agrees is common sense, you need a document.

Couldn't (and didn't) have said it better myself.

	10-06-2002 08:12									#43
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NO! The rules of conduct are the rules of apolyton itself! Other than playing ahead and maybe one or two otehr things, any "code of conduct" would be no more than a restating of the apolyton faq! Those few things can be understood, as they were in the civ2 game, and very briefly explained if anyone has question!

	10-06-2002 08:27									#44
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In the Civ2 game, we have overall (after much debate) decided on no constitution. We do, however, have a set of rules to follow. These are simple, to the point and relatively easy to follow, unlike a Constitution the size of skywalker's is (sorry man, I just don't have the patience to read it )

These are our rules:

Responsibilities of Cabinet

Prez:

Plays the game
If supplied with conflicting advice/polls and there is no time/way to straighten this out, the Prez makes the final decisions.
If the matter is urgent enough (eg imminent invasion/loos of capital city), the Prez is expected to seek help from Ministers/the Public and NOT go it alone.
Should post a turn-by-turn account of their play (nothing too detailed, just major troop movements, conquests etc, Wonder/technology news...)
Gets to name cities

VP:

Posts nomination thread
Posts election polls
Becomes Minister if that Minister is absent for 24hr
Becomes Prez in event of abdication - holds position until next elections

SMC:

Military polls, exploration

Sci:

Setting science rate (in conjunction with Trade Advisor)
Tech targets (main and secondary for just in case situations where we can't go for the one we want) - should be for a tree of several techs so we don't have to stop every time we get one.

Trade:

All uses of caravans (Wonders, trade with ourselves/others, rushing other things)
Setting tax rate (in conjunction with Science Advisor)

City Planner:

What to do with workers and when to build them
Build queues. When polling on possible build queues, the Minister decides the most important ones for himself (in consultation with public/Council if necessary) and poll only on these important ones
Unhappiness Issues

Imperial Exploration:

Where to build cities
Cultivation (improving terrain)

Deputy Ministers:

Do not get the save game.
May be required to take over if the actual Minister disappears (will be decided when/if it happens)

Historian:

Writes a narrative of all that happens during a term (see -Jrabbit's excellent ones for a good indicator of what you are to do) with excessive smilies (important! :doitnow: ) and must be prepared to be contacted for news to put on the Apolyton Civ2 news site (has happened twice)

Foreign:

All foreign affairs, use of diplomats/spies and government change


General Cabinet

Each person may hold 1 post at a time.
Cabinet gets the save.
Absolutely NO play to be done by any but the Prez
NOBODY is allowed to check the map by cheating or playing into the future for an advantage
NO reloading for favourable outcomes of huts, battles etc.

Everybody

Anyone can be a member of Apolytonia.
All are allowed (and encouraged ) to vote on polls
Any concerns should be posted or PMed to Ministers - this IS a Democratic game!

Elections

Elections end of every month.
Each citizen may be in the Cabinet for four terms in a row only - need a responsibility-free month before they can run again. The only exception is if there is no other candidate for a position in an election - this should be considered last resort material
Self Nominations OK
Once elected (polls close and Cabinet names are posted in High Council thread by the Prez) Ministers must PM their emails to the Prez

Our initial setup

Normal start
Multiplayer Gold Edition
Deity
Raging Hordes
Destroyed Civ restart
Normal Map
Leader name: Fearless Leader

United Apolyton - Dark Blue colour

Science rate at 60%


And that is all. Everything else has been dealt with and will be dealt with as the issue arises. I understand that there will certainly be a little more than this for the Civ3 game (due to the increased complexity), but not that much.

We need not overcomplicate the game in the early stages. I agree with a "constitution" like the post of UberKrux on page 1, that details what the Council does, plus maybe one or two other points.

Perhaps we can vote the Ministers in, and the first thing they should do is think of all the things they want clarified (hypothetical example: who controls exploration - Minister of War or City Planner ) and poll on them. Then, once all that we need to know is clear, we can start. As the game progresses things will come up, and it would be expected that the Prez stops the game so that decisions can be made then and there.

	10-06-2002 08:36									#45
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I think that's good enough for a Constitution.
We don't want this to be bogged down with rules... anything can be decided by a majority vote, why not allow that to take precedence over some list of rules?

	10-06-2002 08:43									#46
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The important difference between what MWIA posted and a constitution is that what he did was just summarize what was understood about how it worked. We never sat down and made a constitution, but we understood it well enough that, as you see, we could write it out with our rules if we wanted too!

	10-06-2002 08:50									#47
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Fellow AAAC member(s) - I maintain that the above is just a collection of rules - there are no set penalties for their violation at the Civ2 game, we have dealt with non-appearance of Ministers as it happened, for example.

Perhaps the ppl here want a penalty to be incurred upon violators of the rules, and that does not constitute a strict Constitution, merely an enforcement of the rules.

The rule is what is decided by polling - it can be "bent", but only if the ppl do not object (maybe the circumstances during play favoured a different course of action than what the ppl decided), and the Ministers/President would be responsible for the outcomes of not following the ppl.

	10-06-2002 08:58									#48
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only playing and reloading (if we decide not to preserve the random seed) would need any punishment. The others are just how it works, putting a poll for somehting your not in charge of or whatever else you could do in violation shouldnt be considered a crime, only an innocent mistake

	10-06-2002 09:00									#49
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Oh, and for anyone browsing this thread who may not want a constitution (or does ), go here and vote on it.

	10-06-2002 09:05									#50
	Inflate your Upload Space

Why'd you add that parenthetical remark??

	10-06-2002 09:08									#51
	Put an end to popups!

Alas, I must be a man of the people, I am a politician after all.
Giving everyone every choice is my natural inclination, you should know better.

	10-06-2002 09:14									#52
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

LOL, I am too, another major policy of the AAACC3 is supporting the will of the people at almost all costs...

	10-06-2002 09:20									#53
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

*Slams his fist on the table*

The AAACC3 is known for letting corruption run rampant, and letting cultural gaps form throughout our empire. The IP will not stand for this!

	10-06-2002 09:25									#54
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

???

Don't listen to him! He's making up stuff, the game hasn't even started and you haven't been active if even a member of the civ2 game so how would you know what the AAAC has done?

	10-06-2002 09:25									#55
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Didn't we form just 15 mins ago? I challenge the Honourable Trip to substantiate those allegations.

	10-06-2002 09:25									#56
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Cause... Uhhh...

The 8ball told me!



...

	10-06-2002 09:30									#57
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ok, I'm calling this a night, see everyone tomorrow morning!

	10-06-2002 10:22									#58
	Increase Your PM Length

It's a constitution to me.

	10-06-2002 10:31									#59
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NO IT IS NOT A CONSTITUTION *collects self* I'll explain why...

1)It was made as we went along, Comrade MrWIA was nice enough to just start collecting all of the rules made and made them into a list.

2)It is still under construction as rules are made or changed, we add or remove them.

3)A constitution would be created before a game, and before we experience anything. It would go like this; making the rules, debating them, changing them, debating some more, and than making it official. a very time consuming process, and the main reason so many oppose it.

It is NOT a constitution, merely a collection of rules.

	11-06-2002 00:30									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Space05us NO IT IS NOT A CONSTITUTION *collects self* I'll explain why... 1)It was made as we went along, Comrade MrWIA was nice enough to just start collecting all of the rules made and made them into a list.

[/b]

I don't see why the means of compilation is valid criteria

quote: 2)It is still under construction as rules are made or changed, we add or remove them.

This doesn't mean it's not a consitution either.

quote: 3)A constitution would be created before a game, and before we experience anything. It would go like this; making the rules, debating them, changing them, debating some more, and than making it official. a very time consuming process, and the main reason so many oppose it.

What MWIA wrote already has been created, thus it has been created before the game. The debate can continue during the game. The constitution is malleable.

quote: [b]It is NOT a constitution, merely a collection of rules.

Same thing. Your definition of 'constitution' is too narrow, IMO.