09-06-2002 00:41									#1
	Constitutional Convention Increase Your PM Length

Here is the thread where we shall draw up a set of rules and rights for our glorious empire. anyone can propose anything, and we shall debate it out.

Example Questions:

How long should the regimes rule for?
Is it going to be based on turns? or Days?

Example Proposal:

The Structure of the game itself should coinside with the government form during the game. the people should have more of a say in a Republic or Democracy, and during a Despotism, the Leader and his cabinet could completely ignore their people.

DEBATE ON MY MINIONS!

	09-06-2002 00:56									#2
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some issues i want to throw out there:

re-election and multiple terms:
how many times should a person be allowed to be re-elected?

could the Foriegn Minister serve his full term (if there are term limits) and then run for president?

	09-06-2002 01:52									#3
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX how many times should a person be allowed to be re-elected?

Poll posted.

quote: could the Foriegn Minister serve his full term (if there are term limits) and then run for president?

I suggest this, however, maybe a poll for it could be in order. You want to do that?

(Heck, how could I miss this thread...)

	09-06-2002 07:22									#4
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I propose that it be the right of every citizen of our great empire to have access to the main save file of our game. This right shall never be denied or resticted.

	09-06-2002 08:08									#5
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The following powers shall be granted to the following offices, pending approval. Anything written here can be subject to change after debate.

President:
The President shall physically play the game after conducting polls, referring to his advisors, and generally checking with his people.

The President shall be granted the power to veto any action that was passed with less than 50% of the vote, so long as the Vice President agrees, and backs him. He may call for a re-vote with a detailed explination of why he vetoed the action. The veto cannot be overturned, but if the revote yields similiar result, the President must go with the will of the people.

The President shall have the power to call for a vote to change our Government type. The vote must pass with a 2/3 majority.

Vice President:
::under construction::

Science Advisor
The Science Advisor is given the power to choose which advances to research, and which path on the tech tree we travel. He has the power to create polls for all of his powers, but is NOT obligated to FOLLOW them. He has the power to choose on his own what is best for our nation.

The Science Advisor is granted the power to offer/accept deals reguarding the exchange of Technology.

Foriegn Advisor
The Foriegn Advisor manages all the treaties of our game.

The Foriegn Advisor is granted the power to make/accept peace, declare war, offer/accept Mutual Protection Pacts, offer/accept Right of Passage Agreements, and offer/accept Military Alliances.

Trade Advisor
The Trade Advisor manages all international trade.

The Trade Advisor is granted the power to make/accept Trade Embargos.

The Trade Advisor is granted the power to offer/accept deals reguarding the exchange of luxury or strategic resources.

(NOTE: The Science Advisor and the Trade Advisor both play a role in Diplomacy. The Science Advisor would have to say "I allow you to trade Nationalism at free will", if the Trade Advisor wanted to trade Nationalism for Dyes) Shall we amend this?

Military Advisor
The Military Advisor is in charge of all military planning.

The Military Advisor is granted the power to make polls on the # of cities dedicated to making military units.

The Military Advisor is granted the power to set up the army's strategy. He tells what troops to move where, and which battles to engage.

The Military Advisor is granted the power to request that the Foriegn Minister Demand Tribute from an enemy civ.

The Military Advisor is granted the power to take part in the Negotiation of any Trade including the signing of a Peace Treaty, Mutual Protection Pact, or a Right of Passage agreement. (Foriegn Advisor calls the shots, but the Military Advisor must have his voice heard)

i'm tired. someone do the VP, City Planner, Imp. Expansion, and Historian.

	09-06-2002 08:10									#6
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX Example Proposal: The Structure of the game itself should coinside with the government form during the game. the people should have more of a say in a Republic or Democracy, and during a Despotism, the Leader and his cabinet could completely ignore their people.

If you hadnt noticed, its a democracy game, a real despot wouldnt even wait to be elected but start playing the game, pronounce himself leader and post saves from time to time.

	09-06-2002 08:39									#7
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quote: The President shall have the power to call for a vote to change our Government type. The vote must pass with a 2/3 majority.

51% should be enough for a gouverment change.

quote: The ****** Advisor is granted the power etc

All advisors have the power to advise the president

Some suggestions:

Vice President:

The vice president is in charge of holding elections and supreme advisor to the president.

Imp. Expansion

Is in charge of placing new city's and roadbuilding.

City Planner

Is in charge of resources, Irrigation and improvements.

	09-06-2002 09:41									#8
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I propose that all polls shall be open no less than 2 days to account for multiple time zones / missed days. it is the right of every citizen to have the ability to vote at his or her leisure.

	09-06-2002 12:30									#9
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No drafting constitutions!! I say just make a post where the rules will be posted when they are made.

BURN IT


p.s. Do political parties exist in this democratic game?

	09-06-2002 14:49									#10
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KruX, what made you the uber organizer?

Oh, and a constitution is good. It prevents the game from turn out of hands once started. Wee need to make one, and make sure that people agree to it. Then it shall not be as easy to edit...

	09-06-2002 19:59									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos KruX, what made you the uber organizer?

i wanted to feel popular, now youve gone and hurt my feelings!

	09-06-2002 20:09									#12
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Can the first despot remain in power forever if he keeps the Despotism?

	09-06-2002 20:14									#13
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I suggest it is allowed for candidates to pay their citizens for their vote.

PS:
Payments may be made directly upon my bankaccountnumber or be made payable by check.

	09-06-2002 20:24									#14
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This may be taking the easy way out (well, not 'maybe') but I think we should borrow a lot from the CivFanatics demogame Constitution because it's really quite good, it's had many revisions to improve it, it will give us a starting point, making up a whole new constitution will be time consuming and exhaustive and will probably need many overhauls when new things come up and we can change any parts we don't like anyway.

	09-06-2002 20:33									#15
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I'd suggest we could have a Intelligence Minister, or something like this. The IM is in charge of all things related to open Embassies with another powers and can decide how espionage would be handled.

He also manages our explorer units (that can be used to gather information about enemy troops).

If we don't want to make him a Minister since the beginning, he would start as a Secretary and then his position would be updated to Minister once the Intelligence Agency is built.

Any ideas?

	09-06-2002 20:35									#16
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 This may be taking the easy way out (well, not 'maybe') but I think we should borrow a lot from the CivFanatics demogame Constitution because it's really quite good, it's had many revisions to improve it, it will give us a starting point, making up a whole new constitution will be time consuming and exhaustive and will probably need many overhauls when new things come up and we can change any parts we don't like anyway.

The CFC constitution :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...=1&display=show

	09-06-2002 20:40									#17
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 This may be taking the easy way out (well, not 'maybe') but I think we should borrow a lot from the CivFanatics demogame Constitution because it's really quite good, it's had many revisions to improve it, it will give us a starting point, making up a whole new constitution will be time consuming and exhaustive and will probably need many overhauls when new things come up and we can change any parts we don't like anyway.

Sounds like a good suggestion to me. I am all for it.

	09-06-2002 21:42									#18
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 This may be taking the easy way out (well, not 'maybe') but I think we should borrow a lot from the CivFanatics demogame Constitution because it's really quite good, it's had many revisions to improve it, it will give us a starting point, making up a whole new constitution will be time consuming and exhaustive and will probably need many overhauls when new things come up and we can change any parts we don't like anyway.

We can probably borrow some of it. However, I think we need to draw some lines of our own first, tyhen borrow some, and then adjust it to fit with our lines.

We don'ät want a game idedntical to the CFC game.

	09-06-2002 21:45									#19
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Oh, and this line just must get into the constitusion:

Once a game is started by the president restart is not allowed. No matter how bad the starting position is.


(We need to handle what god gves us)

	09-06-2002 23:19									#20
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quote: The Military Advisor is granted the power to request that the Foriegn Minister Demand Tribute from an enemy civ.

I disagree with this point slightly. I don't believe it should be in the Military Advisor's power to request demands on a political level.

Basically, what I am saying is, the Military Advisor should keep to managing troops and battles, not international policy.

IF it is the wishes of the people and government, of course such a tribute may be requested, but to leave the power of a non-military request to the military seems odd. It should be the duties of the Military advisor to ensure the nations military needs are met, and nothing more IMHO. It should be other areas of the government to deal with requests of tribute and foreign policy, not our military guy.

Now, if the military advisor feels his armies are in need of a certain strategic resource, sure, it should be in his power to request his nation obtain it in trade (or by force). But areas of trade and diplomacy should be left to the Trade and Foreign advisors.

However, yes, I agree the military advisor should have his opinions heard on all matters concerning him, including peace treaties and aliances and such.

	10-06-2002 01:22									#21
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Here's a slightly modified version of my Civ2 Demo Game proposal. Please feel free to offer suggestions (as if I really needed to say that ).

Democracy Game Constitution

"We the people of the United Apolytonia in order to form a more perfect Civ3 game, establish lots of polls, ensure domestic controversy, provide for the common amusement, promote the general post count, and secure the illusion of importance to ourselves and our posterity do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United Apolyton."



Article 1: The Presidency

Section 1: The President

The President is the Chief Executive. In any situation the President may ask to be incuded in the decision-making process, and is the sole authority in most final decisions. Except where specifically noted, the President has veto power, but is encouraged not to use it. The President is responsible for playing the actual game and holding turn chats while doing so.

Section 2: The Vice President

The Vice President is responsible for exercising the powers of the President when the President is for whatever reason incapable of doing so.


Article 2: The Cabinet

Section 1: Department Heads

The Secretary of War is responsible for presenting the President and citizens with a detailed report on the state of the military. The Secretary of War should be present at all discussions regarding the construction, deployment, or use of military units, the placement of cities and forts, and wonder construction.

The Foreign Minister is responsible for presenting the President and citizens with a detailed report on relations with other nations and our espionage capabilities regarding them. The Foreign Minister should be present at all discussions regarding the construction, deployment, or use of all Diplomats/Spies, or wonder construction.

The Secretary of the Interior is responsible for providing the President and citizens with a detailed report on all internal and external trade routes, the location and status of all settlers, the production queue of each city, the status of each city (Is it in WLT*D, normal, or revolt?), tax allocation, gold/turn, available food caravans, wonder opportunities, and a list of the supply/demand in every city, including foreign cities. The Secretary of the Interior should be present at all discussions regarding internal or external trade, settler allocation, city production, city creation, or wonder construction.

The Science Advisor is responsible for providing the President and citizens with a detailed report on all possible research paths, noting the military, wonder, and other benefits in choosing each path. The Science Advisor should be present at all discussions regarding research choices or wonder construction.

The Expansion Minister is responsible for providing the President and citizens with a detailed report on potential new city sites, our capability to get settlers there, and our exploration capacity. The Expansion Minister should be present at all discussions regarding exploration, city creation, or wonder construction.

Section 2: Deputy Deparment Heads

Deputy Department Heads are not required postitions. They are appointed by the Department Heads. There can be one deputy deparment head for each department. The Deputy Department Head carries out all of the functions of the Department Head when the Department Head is for any reason incapable of doing so.

Section 3: Sub-Department Heads

Sub-Department Heads are not required postitions. They are appointed by the Department Heads.

For the War Department:

The Sub-Secretary of the Army is responsible for providing the Secretary of War with all information pertinent to our ground forces. There may not be a Sub-Secretary of the Army until both Horseback Riding and Bronze Working are discovered.

The Sub-Secretary of the Navy is responsible for providing the Secretary of War with all information pertinent to our naval forces. There may not be a Sub-Secretary of the Navy until Map Making is discovered.

The Sub-Secretary of the Air Force is responsible for providing the Secretary of War with all information pertinent to our air forces. There may not be a Sub-Secretary of the Air Force until Flight is discovered.

For the Department of Foreign Affairs:

The Sub-Minister of Espionage is responsible for providing the Foreign Minister with all information pertinent to our spies. There may not be a Sub-Minister of Espionage until Espionage is discovered.

For the Department of the Interior:

The Sub-Secretary of Trade is responsible for providing the Secretary of the Interior with all information pertinent to foreign and domestic trade, including a list of all trade routes and a list of the supply and demand in all cities, foreign and domestic. There may not be a Sub-Secretary of Trade until Trade is discovered.


Article 3: States and Governors

Section 1: States

States are regional administrative areas which may contain no more than 5 cities. Each state has a governor who is the Chief Executive of that state. Each state can formulate local policy in relation to defense, trade, city improvement construction, and settler allocation.

Section 2: Governors

Governors are the Chief Exucutives of states. The governor is responsible for presenting the President and the citizens with a detailed report on all information pertinent to his or her state. The governor has the sole right to make decisions regarding martial law. The governor should be present at all discussions regarding city improvement construction, unit production, military unit deployment, settler allocation, and wonder construction in his or her state.

Article 4: Elections

Elections for President and Deparment Heads will be held every 30 days, and the polls will be open for two days. To be in the running for a post, you must be nominated and seconded. Nomination time will be in the three days preceeding the opening of the polls. The nomination time occurs during the term of the previous administration, but the game is not played while the polls are open. A person may be a candidate for only one office at a time. Elections are won by simple plurality. If there is a tie, those not tied will be out of the running and there will be another two-day voting period. This will continue until there is a winner. If the election comes to a two-person tie or goes on too long will be ended by rock-paper-scissors or something.

Article 5: Tasks that require special authorization

Section 1: Declaring War

To declare war on another country there must be a poll in which at least 20 people vote and at least 60% of the votes are for war.

Section 2: Negotiating Peace

To negotiate peace there must be a poll in which at least fifteen people vote and at least 60% of the votes are for attempting to negotiate peace. Decisions on specific deals during negotiations will be made during the turn chat.

Section 3: Wonder Construction

To begin construction of a wonder there must be a poll in which at least ten people vote and the wonder with a simple plurality will win. There must be a second poll regarding at which city the wonder should be constructed, but this poll is a normal poll.

Section 4: Nuclear Weapons

To use nuclear weapons, for the first time there must be a poll in which at least 25 people vote and at least 75% of the votes are for using nukes. Each subsequent use only requires 15 voters and at least 60% of the votes. If we are nuked first then the first authorization is bypassed and authorization is the same as subsequent nukes. If the decision must be made during the turn chat, authorization will be given by rules determined during the chat.

	10-06-2002 01:46									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos We can probably borrow some of it. However, I think we need to draw some lines of our own first, tyhen borrow some, and then adjust it to fit with our lines. We don'ät want a game idedntical to the CFC game.

I doubt the game would be the same it all, it's just the mechaics for running the game. As I said, it would be a good starting point, something build from.

	10-06-2002 02:12									#23
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I say NO to any formal constitution! It would be far too complicated for such a simple game that doesn't require it, as everyone has a mutual understanding of the rules.
It will take too long to set up and agree upon. People will have different views on what needs to be included; i.e. restrictions, abilities. How would you go about debating this? one big Spam thread?
Once something is finally agreed upon and is labled as official what happens when something arises that is either unmentioned in, or conflicts with the contisitution? if everyone agree that there needs to be changes made, and just about everyone would have to agree in order to make changes, how would you go about making those changes? another Spam thread, in which other conflicts with the constitution would arise?
I say NO to any formal constitution. However what I do support is a thread where all official rules will be posted. By doing this you have the ability to play the game and deal with problems in a much simpler way, one at a time. Again I say NO to any formal constitution.
BURN IT

	10-06-2002 02:31									#24
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How does everyone have a mutual understanding of the rules when no such rules exist?? We need a constitution in order to know what the game mechanics are. We don't need unanimous votes to make changes, though a cabinet vote with a quorum might ne a good idea.

	10-06-2002 02:33									#25
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by the time the rules are made everyone will understand, it's not explainable it just happens.

	10-06-2002 02:35									#26
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I doubt everyone will understand, as there will need to be tons of rules. The Constitution would be a very long document, and it needs to be referenceable. I can't see why you would want to have the rules but not put them in a Constitution. It makes no difference if you call it a 'thread'.

	10-06-2002 02:37									#27
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Well, I think we should borrow at least as mush from the ACS Civ2 game as from the CFC Civ3 game.

	10-06-2002 02:38									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos Well, I think we should borrow at least as mush from the ACS Civ2 game as from the CFC Civ3 game.

Fine by me. Only use the CFC Civ3 game as a reference because I'm in it and aware of its rules, and because it's a Civ 3 game, though I'm not sure that that would have any real bearing anyway.

	10-06-2002 03:13									#29
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a constitution would be made befor we start the game, by just posting the rules we can make them up as we go along

	10-06-2002 03:20									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Space05us a constitution would be made befor we start the game, by just posting the rules we can make them up as we go along

Yes to give us a start. Again, the constitution is malleable, with a majority vote.