09-06-2002 22:40									#1
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Everybody knows that I am fond of vet spies. Here is the best reason why:
If you are able to build nuclear missiles (very powerful, but useless if your enemy has SDI defence), your vet spies also are able to plant nuclear devices even in cities protected by SDI.
This is by far the cheapest and most powerful weapon in civ2, since the rate of success is about 2/3 (with vet spies): if you attack with 15 spies, you will likeky lose 5 on the average and 'nuke' 10 cities!

Therefore, the cost is about 15 shields/city (about 1 vet spy lost for 2 cities 'nuked').
Let me remind you of the results (the same as those of a nuclear missile): all units inside and around the city destroyed, population halved and a few skulls appearing around the city.
It is of course highly advisable to have some fast moving units (MechInf or tanks or Explorers,...) ready to take the cities after you have 'nuked' them. With somewhat careful planning, you can even destroy a whole civ in 1 turn and get rid of the partisans (all of them suddenly disappear when you take the last city ).

AFAIK there is no defence against this weapon, which is so cheap and so powerful that I call it 'the ultimate weapon' in civ2

	10-06-2002 03:23									#2
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You can protect your cities by surrounding them but that is great expense.They are certainly the most versatile unit.

Does stationing spys help prevent nuclear devices?

	10-06-2002 03:55									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Smash Does stationing spys help prevent nuclear devices?

I haven't tested that, because it never occured to me, playing SP.
I agree that it should be tested, since surrounding the city is not a strong defence (so easy to destroy or bribe one unit and find your way in).

	10-06-2002 03:59									#4
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Airbased hills and mined city squares are the best weapons. Just ask Rah.

	10-06-2002 11:31									#5
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La Fayette, do you not lose half of your successful spies making the cost 30 shields per city destroyed?

SG[1]

	10-06-2002 12:00									#6
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In my test, I attacked 20 cities and lost 10 vet spies. I grant you this is a small sample, but I remember very sadly the hundreds of spies that I killed when doing research about bribing and sabotaging .
I wouldn't be surprised if the losses were up to 100 for 100 cities nuked, as you suggest, but it would break my heart to test that .
Anyone willing?

	10-06-2002 13:25									#7
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Perhaps La Fayette's vet spies are even more efficient than other vet spies, since they know that La Fayette loves them .

	10-06-2002 18:01									#8
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quote: Originally posted by GP Airbased hills and mined city squares are the best weapons. Just ask Rah.

Funny Man.

The only defense against spies is
1. not railroading every square.
2. not haveing a city within 3 movement points of water.
3. having all railroads have well defended at choke points with fortresses and multiple units. Within 3 squares of cityes with SDIs
4. having 2x movement terrain around your city.
5. Using sentry posts.
6. patrols, (easiest with planes)
7. Having ready response "heavy hitter" units to attack when the spys are moving with vet alpine units for protection.
8. The solid line of troops defense (never really practical since it's usually easy to bust a hole in it)

Unfortunately these conditions can not be met with all of your cities.

I have never used a suitcase nuke against the AI. It makes the game way to easy. (of course I don't bribe AI cities either) Gotta handicap the AI somehow

RAH

	10-06-2002 19:23									#9
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agree with rah on his points in SP...... having nuked people in mp, i always get the lecture...."no nukes, to easy to win"

fair enough arguement......but spies are far more lethal...especially the vets.....
poisoning water, theft, destruction, crude nuke...whatever.....

i personally think if your going to limit nukes in a game then the spy plant(nuke) should be eliminated as well

	10-06-2002 20:27									#10
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rah & War4ever
I agree with you: nukes are ugly and spies are so powerful that both might be forbidden in order to increase the challenge.

(La Fayette, sorry because someone asked him to play a game without his beloved vet spies)

Don't forget though that there are people still struggling to win at deity level. I think it's fair to give them good advice and strong weapons. This is a strategy forum, after all .

	10-06-2002 20:34									#11
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La Fayette...... i have no problems dropping a couple of nukes on the ai...just to hear their diplomats message about nuke weapons.......

as a rule i don't use them for conquest against the ai for the same reasons as Rah....but they are a great learning tool for novice players.

However i feel nukes are at their best against the ai when used upon an enemy fleet in the water....

i too don't bribe ai ciites....unless they bribe one of mine ...then i will bribe it back.....


my only concern for players who play SP mode and who have hopes of surviving in MP, don't rely on any of the tricks you learn against the computer..most of us are too savvy to fall for them in MP.....

SP mode teaches bad habits for MP IMO...that is the best advice i can give junior players

	10-06-2002 21:01									#12
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Back in the Addicted days, I remember hearling all the tree-hugger builder types saying that they thought nukes would HAVE to be outlawed for MP.

I didn't like that...wanted to see the carnage. I thought city buying out to be eliminated but nukes left in.

So how did it all work out? Are nukes allowed?

	10-06-2002 21:23									#13
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In fact I haven't been using any kind of nuke for quite a long time, but I was playing ww79 recently (some kind of friendly competition between XinYu, DrFell and myself) and the AI civs sent so many nuclear missiles at one another (and also at me ) that I finally decided to use my beloved vet spies (and destroyed the two remaining civs in 3 turms ).

In the MP games I play (PBEM), I haven't seen any nuke yet, but I think there is no general rule (matter of agreement between players when starting the game, just like caravan rehoming or tricky airbases and the like).

	10-06-2002 23:38									#14
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well having nuked people myself in mp , there is no rule....but i like war (could you guess) and when others groan about them i quickly remind them about spies

	10-06-2002 23:42									#15
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War - I'm surprised that MP games ever get as far as nukes - or are these scenario starts??

SG[1]

	10-06-2002 23:45									#16
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SG[1], you read my mind. I had typed in a response just like that but the forum said it was too busy. I went away to run a few errands.

	13-06-2002 13:53									#17
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I agree vet spies are of a good use in Civ2.
But are they actualy "the ultimate weapon" ?
See the Rah post, where several defense tactics are listed, mainly based on control of approaching.
I see two other ways for disturbing spy attacks :
- when bribing has begun in a game, I always stack one or two (vet?) spies in front cities, to conter spy attacks : the defense is not absolute, but the number of vet spy to spend for bribing a city is far more than two when the city has spies in its walls !
- what about cities with SDI ? Ai doesn't allow sabotage of SDI then nuking is difficult. I know that introducing nuke by a spy remain possible, but is SDI of no effect against that operation or there is odds and we have to spend several spies with nuke to succed ?
I play SP too, but I lack of experience with nuking, as in the most times, victory happens before Manhattan's.

	13-06-2002 23:36									#18
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JCP, in the manual's discussion of spy abilities, one ability is counterespionage, which specifically refers to protecting against tech theft. There's no indication that a spy in a city provides any other kind of protection. I don't think anyone has produced any evidence for any other protection. Cities with spies in them are some of my favorite cities to bribe....

I don't think SDI provides any protection at all against the bomb in the diplomatic pouch. And from a real-world perspective, why would it? And while Lafayette does love his vet spies, I think the ultimate weapon he's referring to is specifically that nuclear spy.

	14-06-2002 00:21									#19
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JCP
Debeest has read your post before me and given the answer; thank you debeest; here are some more details:
1) Diplomats or spies stacked inside a city help preventing tech theft, but they do nothing else. The more spies you stack inside a city, the happier I am, because the bribing cost remains exactly the same and this provides me with some free spies on top of the deal.
2) SDI defence is completely powerless against spies.
In my attack of the American civ, ALL American cities were protected by SDI defence and I lost exactly 10 spies for 20 cities destroyed .
3) rah, who is a very experienced player, is very afraid of vet spies, AND HE IS PERFECTLY RIGHT.
Playing SP, it's OK; the AI is not really clever using them. Playing MP I would advise you to be afraid of diplomats (because if you don't you won't survive long enough to build your first spy)

	14-06-2002 03:59									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits War - I'm surprised that MP games ever get as far as nukes - or are these scenario starts?? SG[1]

Scouse Gits.....they don't usually get that far ....but every once in awhile they do....and no these are not scenario starts

i nuked Bird.....he hasn't forgotten about it ...in the process i lost my twenty units on a fortressed mountain...so they were all laughing at me....

no one laughed much longer

though rah pulled a nice manouver to take laser and save his hide

all in all probably the greatest mp game i had been in up to that point

	14-06-2002 13:23									#21
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Thanks to Debeest and La Fayette for their lights

quote: ...one ability is counterespionage, which specifically refers to protecting against tech theft. There's no indication that a spy in a city provides any other kind of protection. Diplomats or spies stacked inside a city help preventing tech theft, but they do nothing else.

OK, I was thinking that counterespionage was applied to any spy action.
When my spy counters an ennemy spy action, the game does not specify which action was tried !
If it's only effective against tech stealing, the interest is limited.
But the situation of my game where I've face the question let me believe that a vet spy may counter a bribing action (however not each time).

quote: I don't think SDI provides any protection at all against the bomb in the diplomatic pouch. SDI defence is completely powerless against spies.

I know that introducing nuke by a spy may be acted even with SDI protection. My question was about the odds for success. The La Fayette experience answers : it's no more difficult to nuke a city by spy when it has SDI !
I agree I was confused when I disovered that AI prohibed the sabotage of its SDI protections ! It looks me cheating !
That explains the trend of AI to build SDI rather than SAM.

	14-06-2002 18:44									#22
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supposedly the hardest function of a spy is to plant the nuke....vets will obviously make it a % easier.....the exact % i have no clue....

	14-06-2002 21:21									#23
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever ....the exact % i have no clue....

Many people seem to be convinced that losses are 1/1 with non vet and 1/2 with vet spies, but I don't think this has been thoroughly tested.
My own short test (in fact I was playing, not testing ), against the American civ in ww79 scenario, gives 20 cities destroyed (all with SDI protection) and 10 spies lost after an attack with 30 vet spies. This would mean losses = 1/3 with vet spies.
Larger sample needed to make sure.

	15-06-2002 04:43									#24
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Larger sample needed to make sure.

hehe... i doubt i would have the patience....but you do

	19-06-2002 15:06									#25
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If you're on a seperate island, all you have to do is have enough boats so they can't drop spies

otherwise block the route at choke points with several units in a fortress i guess, but of course you don't always have suitable land for that...

I think the best defense is the offense
if they send in spies, then do the same

	19-06-2002 17:10									#26
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Many people seem to be convinced that losses are 1/1 with non vet and 1/2 with vet spies, but I don't think this has been thoroughly tested. My own short test (in fact I was playing, not testing ), against the American civ in ww79 scenario, gives 20 cities destroyed (all with SDI protection) and 10 spies lost after an attack with 30 vet spies. This would mean losses = 1/3 with vet spies. Larger sample needed to make sure.

At the Invasion Planet Earth Succession game, wich was won by our glorious alien nation, our wonderweapons were lots of nuking devices. About 50 human cities were nuked. We need aprox. 2-3 Spies per city. My personal "record" was 6 spys to nuke a city.

	19-06-2002 23:14									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus otherwise block the route at choke points with several units in a fortress i guess, but of course you don't always have suitable land for that...

I played similar situations, blocking spies on the roads with joined fortress ... and eliminating non-roaded skirtings by airplanes.
It's usefull when we have other active fronts, but when we progress on that front, the fortress line will be in our back !
... and it was against AI, not very imaginative for changing tactics. Against a human civ there would be another piece of cake !

	24-06-2002 03:29									#28
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yes fortifications rarely work against a good human player

	24-06-2002 04:12									#29
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well on a mountain at a chokepoint they're pretty effective... although i'd usually build a city there instead...