10-06-2002 21:28									#31
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"All things considered, Id rather it be hyped up then ignored or have it underestimated."

Depends. A timely success after it turns out that most anti-terrorism "intelligence" suffers from serious problems. Overhyped lines will get ignored over time, so it is in no way helpful.

"But in any case you surely do not believe that there will be no more terrorism in the United States do you?"

Of course there will be.

	10-06-2002 21:30									#32
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 i'm sorry but are you prepared to go down while on your TVs eminem is playing? what are you defending?

Is "eminem" one of those weird rap groups? if they are then they are the enemy!

	10-06-2002 21:30									#33
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no, really,listen the US is threatened, really it has entered a new century. a new world order if you will.

i have no doubt that there is a real danger.

so far they have done pretty good though.

(considering nothing has happened)

	10-06-2002 21:34									#34
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Yes, what we have been tool isn't very specific. Because of this, we should reserve judgment.

I prefer to look at it as a game. Why did we announce it a whole month after the arrest? The timing is interesting. A couple of days after stressing that we had Abu Zabaydah and how helpful he had been. Lots of different scenarios to think about.

Edit: I doubt al Qaeda is as good as the Soviets at these games...

	10-06-2002 21:38									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "All things considered, Id rather it be hyped up then ignored or have it underestimated." Depends. A timely success after it turns out that most anti-terrorism "intelligence" suffers from serious problems. Overhyped lines will get ignored over time, so it is in no way helpful.

Which is why someone in goverment needs to be able to explain exactly what the alerts were all about. I agree that issuing these alerts and statements and then just kind of forgetting about them is harmful too. After an alert is issued and a period of time goes by without something happening, then someone needs to say we had such and such information and this is why we issued the alert instead of just going on to the next alert.

The goverment here has never been big on communication. But this is the kind of situations where the government must be open to the people as long as it doesn't jepordize our future ability to predict and stop attacks. It's a fine line during the best of times not to mention times like these.

	10-06-2002 21:42									#36
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And this particular administration is real big on keeping information flow to an absolute minimum.

	10-06-2002 21:47									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Why did we announce it a whole month after the arrest? The timing is interesting. A couple of days after stressing that we had Abu Zabaydah and how helpful he had been. Lots of different scenarios to think about.

That's interesting. I wonder if they'd been planning on delaying the anouncment even longer, but said it now to deflect the calls for an independent investigation of the Administration's handling of counter-terrorism.

It looks like Frasca is being set up to be the fall guy for the FBI's 9/11 failure. Rowly as much as identified him as the person who kept the Minnieapolis FBI from getting the search warrent they needed to open Moussaoui's hard drive. The Pheopnix memo was addressed to Frasca as well. So, is this a Frasca problem (Meuller certainly shouldn't be held responsible, we was only in a week prior to 9/11) or was he acting upon orders from higher up?

	10-06-2002 21:48									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Edit: I doubt al Qaeda is as good as the Soviets at these games...

Id rather it be the Soviets. At least they had some interest in keeping the games as vague and small scale as possible. People who send other people to die in planes and cars don't have to be as careful as another government does. Terrorists really don't have anything to lose.

	10-06-2002 21:49									#39
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A radiological bomb would be fairly devastating, depending on the isotope used. Whereas it won't kill many (if any) people outright the aftereffects will possibly render whole areas of the city uninhabitable for years to come, and everyone exposed would risk radiation sickness/cancer.

I think one of the Cesium isotopes is the noe they're most worried about.

	10-06-2002 21:52									#40
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I disagree. They'd clean it up fairly quickly. Our government has very good experience at cleaning up nuclear waste.

quote: Many types of radioactive materials with military, industrial, or medical applications could be used in a dirty bomb. Weapons-grade plutonium or uranium, as well as freshly spent nuclear fuel, would be the most deadly but are also the hardest to obtain and handle. Medical supplies such as radium or certain cesium isotopes, used in cancer treatments and X-ray machines, could be used, although they generally would be less dangerous. As little as a measuring cup's worth of radioactive material would be needed, but experts say that such small amounts would be unlikely to cause severe harm, especially if scattered over a wide area.

	10-06-2002 21:54									#41
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And this particular administration is real big on keeping information flow to an absolute minimum.

Come on che, every adminstration is like that. And no, it isn't right just because others have done it. But don't make like Bush is the worst offender in history or even in the past 20 years.

	10-06-2002 22:08									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Come on che, every adminstration is like that. [. . .] But don't make like Bush is the worst offender in history or even in the past 20 years.

This administration has at least twice disobeyed court orders to turn over documents. They canned a scientist who'd been putting maps up on a government website for years right after he put up a map of caribou migration patterns. They've tried to close up FoI releases of documents. Heck, Ari Flescher even tried to tell Bill Mahr what he could and couldn't say. This Administration is a particularly bad one for freedom of information.

	10-06-2002 22:15									#43
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I disagree. They'd clean it up fairly quickly. Our government has very good experience at cleaning up nuclear waste. quote: Many types of radioactive materials with military, industrial, or medical applications could be used in a dirty bomb. Weapons-grade plutonium or uranium, as well as freshly spent nuclear fuel, would be the most deadly but are also the hardest to obtain and handle. Medical supplies such as radium or certain cesium isotopes, used in cancer treatments and X-ray machines, could be used, although they generally would be less dangerous. As little as a measuring cup's worth of radioactive material would be needed, but experts say that such small amounts would be unlikely to cause severe harm, especially if scattered over a wide area.

Not from a city they're not. Could you imagine trying to decontaminate even just a few city blocks in a metropolitan area. How would you decontaminate the outside of a 50 story building? Never mind that dust will be taken in by the air intakes. Look at the costs of a few micrograms of anthrax. Imagine a pound of radioactive material detonated within a truck bomb in any major city.

Would you travel in or work in an area where "experts" told you it was OK if it hadnt been proven to be cleaned up (and I'm not even postulating uranium or plutonium here). I'm not saying that the immediate death count would be high but the terror and financial costs would be.

	10-06-2002 23:02									#44
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" That's interesting. I wonder if they'd been planning on delaying the anouncment even longer, but said it now to deflect the calls for an independent investigation of the Administration's handling of counter-terrorism. "

You're a cynical bastard, che.

If true, my guess is that the career folks at FBI and CIA would not like to be the domestic political tools in this manner. The likelihood of this seems quite low.

There's a bigger game going on here, in my opinion. But I guess it could be as simple as the press was on the trail of the story and Ashcroft decided to release on his own terms. Tough to know.

Re the challenges in cleaning up Washington, I'm guessing that you are understating them substantially.

	10-06-2002 23:45									#45
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I find it ironic that when I'm actually believing that the government could handle something, the people who tradictionally defend it from me are on the other side.

Well, I don't claim to be an expert here, so maybe I'll just shut up, even if it is drawing out better explanations.

	10-06-2002 23:48									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DanS " That's interesting. I wonder if they'd been planning on delaying the anouncment even longer, but said it now to deflect the calls for an independent investigation of the Administration's handling of counter-terrorism. " You're a cynical bastard, che.

I'd like not to be, but the news said that they'd been planning on announcing the new departement in July, but it moved up to dominate the news on the day when Agent Rowley was testifying before Congress to keep her testimony off the news.

They made me cynical. Otherwise, I' the kinda guy who likes to stand outside in a summer rain storm and splash in the puddles.

	11-06-2002 02:45									#47
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Otherwise, I' the kinda guy who likes to stand outside in a summer rain storm and splash in the puddles.

With your neck tilted back and your mouth wide open, just like baby domesticated Turkeys who have been known to drown in showers?

	11-06-2002 02:46									#48
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I'd like to know more details, like where they were going to get the radioactive material.

	11-06-2002 02:46									#49
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You're mean.

	11-06-2002 03:05									#50
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quote: U.S. authorities capture 'dirty bomb' suspect His associate captured in Pakistan, U.S. officials say WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Federal officials captured a U.S. citizen with suspected ties to al Qaeda who allegedly planned to build and explode a radioactive "dirty bomb" in the United States, the Justice Department announced Monday. U.S. officials said Washington was the probable target of the plot. FBI Director Robert Mueller said the plot was in the "discussion stage" when the suspect, Abdullah Al Muhajir, was arrested. Mueller said the plot had not gone any further, to the knowledge of U.S. authorities. Attorney General John Ashcroft said Al Muhajir -- who was born Jose Padilla -- was captured May 8 as he flew into O'Hare International Airport in Chicago, Illinois, from Pakistan. Officials said that in the weeks before he flew to Chicago, Al Muhajir was tracked flying between Pakistan, Egypt and Switzerland. U.S. officials later said an "associate" of Al Muhajir had been arrested in Pakistan, prior to May 8. It wasn't clear whether this was the "associate" Ashcroft referred to when, in announcing Al Muhajir's capture, he said Al Muhajir was working with someone in Pakistan on plans to build a dirty bomb. (Full story) A dirty bomb is a conventional bomb equipped with radioactive material designed to spread over a wide area. Depending on the circumstances of the explosion, the number of deaths and injuries from a dirty bomb might not be substantially greater than from a conventional bomb explosion. But panic over radioactivity and evacuation measures could snarl a city, and the area struck would be off-limits for at least several months during cleanup efforts. (More on dirty bombs) Ashcroft said Al Muhajir, 31, would be treated as an "enemy combatant" of the United States, a move that means he has fewer legal rights than an ordinary defendant in a criminal case. President Bush signed off Sunday night on the decision to treat Al Muhajir as an enemy combatant, senior U.S. officials said, adding that the government faced a Tuesday deadline to decide whether to charge Al Muhajir in the federal court system or turn him over to the Defense Department. Bush accepted the recommendations of Ashcroft and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, the officials said, and the transfer from Justice Department to Defense Department custody was made Monday morning. Suspect 'trained with the enemy' The Justice Department said that Al Muhajir, who was born in New York, served time in prison in the United States in the early 1990s, when he took on his new name. After his release, he traveled to Afghanistan and Pakistan and met with senior al Qaeda officials, Ashcroft said. "While in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Al Muhajir trained with the enemy, including studying how to wire explosive devices and researching radiological dispersion devices," Ashcroft said. "Al Qaeda officials knew that as a citizen of the United States, as a citizen of the United States holding a valid U.S. passport, Al Muhajir would be able to travel freely in the United States without drawing attention to himself." U.S. officials said the primary information about Al Muhajir came from Abu Zubaydah, the most senior al Qaeda figure captured by U.S. authorities. Al Muhajir is being held at the Consolidated Naval Brig in Charleston, South Carolina, according to Pentagon officials. They said the suspect was being held separate from the regular brig population. "We have acted under the laws of war and under the clear Supreme Court precedent which established that the military may detain a United States citizen who has joined the enemy and has entered our country to carry out hostile acts," Ashcroft said. Ashcroft made the announcement in Moscow, Russia, where he is meeting with Russian officials to discuss the war on terrorism. (Read transcript) "To our enemies, I say we will continue to be vigilant against all threats, whether they come from overseas or at home in America," he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/06/10/di...pect/index.html

It looks like CNN finally posted a real story. That should satisfy Roland for now.

BTW, does anyone know the answer to my earlier question?

	11-06-2002 04:04									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Is "eminem" one of those weird rap groups? if they are then they are the enemy!

I hear ya, Lincoln! Whatever happened to old school rap, now that's good music!

On the actual thread subject, I more or less agree with Rollo's (can I call you that Roland? ) cynicism. It all seems terribly convenient, and the info we're getting is lacking to say the least (eg. was he the only operative we caught? does this arrest do anything except making Al-Qaida find another guy to carry the stuff inside the US?).

	11-06-2002 04:05									#52
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What bothers me the most is that this appears to confirm our worst fears, the enemy has nuclear material that it can blow up to render a major city unihabitable for months, if not years. The devastation caused by such a weapon would make 9/11 pale by comparison.

Apparently, this guy came to the US only with "plans" to construct the device. Does this mean that al Qaida already has a souce of nuclear material here inside the US? Or can someone simply ship it here as like one can ship a TV? What's more likely?

Last edited by Ned on 11-06-2002 at 05:25

	11-06-2002 04:37									#53
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Roland,

1. Beautiful way of casting aspersions that you don't have to stand behind.

2. I see a lot more concern from you about US overreaction than about the threats we have or the damage we've endured. (Only hitting one side of the argument, counselor.)

3. I can understand being skeptical of US officials...but you should also realize that in some cases full or even partial details of info is not shared with you for secruity reasons. I've had a TS SCI clearance. I've had access to real hush-hush stuff. I've seen that. Have you?

4. During the Gulf War, there was concern that the Bush Admin was exaggerrating the state of Saddam's WOMD program. After our victory, we learned that they were more advanced than had been suspected.

Last edited by TCO on 11-06-2002 at 05:29

	11-06-2002 05:28									#54
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GP, What were you trying to say?

	11-06-2002 07:10									#55
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GP is DanS-ing. He edited his post almost a full hour after the original! I can't say as I've ever been that brazen with my editing.

	11-06-2002 10:12									#56
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According to what I heard on the radio tonight, he was "muling" money from Switzerland to the United States; also, being 'tracked' from Zurich to Chicago may be a bit of an understatement -- it's rumored that everyone on that flight, besides the suspect, was FBI, CIA, or a sky marshall.

Do you think they may have turned the metal detectors off for boarding that one?



edit: corrected 'Geneva' to 'Zurich'.

Last edited by The Mad Monk on 11-06-2002 at 10:18

	11-06-2002 12:28									#57
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GP:

"1. Beautiful way of casting aspersions that you don't have to stand behind."

So I should not distrust government ? I should suddenly believe what those pathologic liars utter ? Or what's the point ?

"2. I see a lot more concern from you about US overreaction than about the threats we have or the damage we've endured."

You expect a debate on the merits or perils of Al Quaida policy ? Seriously ?
This Bush government is acting lala-land. In the hype, there's an all out war going on. In politics, it's "how can I use this best for my loony and corrupt agenda".

"3. I can understand being skeptical of US officials...but you should also realize that in some cases full or even partial details of info is not shared with you for secruity reasons."

Irrelevant. Politicians are guilty until proven innocent. Keeping that up is civic duty #1.

"I've had a TS SCI clearance."

I hope you have recovered fully by now ?

"4. During the Gulf War, there was concern that the Bush Admin was exaggerrating the state of Saddam's WOMD program."

And during one of Willie's wag the dog operations, there was concern that a certain factory in Sudan is producing nasty things... etc etc....