10-06-2002 23:19									#1
	How to Improve the AI Tired of ads?

As we all know, the AI has improved dramatically since Civ II and SMAC. But their are still holes in the AI that can be exploited by a human, strategies that would ever work against another human. This thread is to be used for discussions on how to improve the AI, not whining about it or any others things you may not like about Civ III. Please try to stay on topic. I hope this thread will become an useful tool for helping Soren to improve the AI.

1) Artillery. The AI's inability to effective use artillery is partically glaring in the time between infantry and tanks, when it is truely nessicary in taking cities.

2) Strength comparison. The AI needs to know when to declare war and when not to.

3) War to the Death. The AI need to know when it is fighting for it's life. A human player will often not stop until the AIs on his home continent are destroyed. The need to learn when it has to forget offense, building wonders and city improvement, and just build all the defensive units it can, drafting all that it can, just to survive.

	10-06-2002 23:34									#2
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I doubt that any of those changes could be made in Civ III because of the way the game's AI seems to be organized.

Strength comparison is an interesting issue because I don't think it would be fair if the AI knew how strong you were. Intellegence is a strategic part of warfare. I completely agree with 1 and 3, though.

	11-06-2002 12:38									#3
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some more points:

- walking through a nation: when i tell otto & co. to get the f#ck off my land, one move later he starts crossing it again. now come on... who walks though someone else's country exept in wartime and military occupation?

- war without reason: jeanne d'arc (even though french aggression is set to minimum) ALWAYS sneak-attacks me, even if i just gave her a lot of money and she is polite or gratious to me...

- never forgive: yeah, around 2000 BC i broke a treaty, now it's 2000 AD and they still havn't forgiven me??? in that case we should all go and kick italys a$$ because the romans defeated us back in the old days

	11-06-2002 13:07									#4
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf some more points: - walking through a nation: when i tell otto & co. to get the f#ck off my land, one move later he starts crossing it again. now come on... who walks though someone else's country exept in wartime and military occupation?

Definitely fix that one. It can't possibly be too hard.

quote: - war without reason: jeanne d'arc (even though french aggression is set to minimum) ALWAYS sneak-attacks me, even if i just gave her a lot of money and she is polite or gratious to me...

There's always a reason to go to war. In the AI's case it is to defeat the human, or at least stop a victory from occurring and minimizing the final score, and his/her place in the demographics.

quote: - never forgive: yeah, around 2000 BC i broke a treaty, now it's 2000 AD and they still havn't forgiven me??? in that case we should all go and kick italys a$$ because the romans defeated us back in the old days

Definitely. I remember SMAC, I drove another faction off my landmass so I could continue my peaceful expansion and complete control of the continent. When I found them again (or built the Empath Guild) I sued for peace and started getting back on good terms, even gaining a pact with them and they returned to politeness. The other factions simply shake their head and say "Do that to us and you're dead" just once and then forget about it. Time should definitely heal old wounds better than it does currently in Civ III. I want to be able to return to polite terms with them eventually. Just like I did in SMAC (and I have managed MPPs with civs I'd previously warred with, but they still remained furious).

	11-06-2002 16:48									#5
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf some more points: - walking through a nation: when i tell otto & co. to get the f#ck off my land, one move later he starts crossing it again. now come on... who walks though someone else's country exept in wartime and military occupation? - war without reason: jeanne d'arc (even though french aggression is set to minimum) ALWAYS sneak-attacks me, even if i just gave her a lot of money and she is polite or gratious to me... - never forgive: yeah, around 2000 BC i broke a treaty, now it's 2000 AD and they still havn't forgiven me??? in that case we should all go and kick italys a$$ because the romans defeated us back in the old days

1. All the time, until the age of nationalism. For instance, the crusaders passed through most of Europe on their way to the Holy Land.
2. Geez, can't we all just get along?
3. See #2.

	11-06-2002 17:43									#6
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First, I love the AI and think its great. It makes the game so much better than Civ2 in that respect. However, there is one glaring problem...

They never seem to wake up to the idea that I am out to conquer the entire world, and they WILL be next as soon as I have conquered their neighbor.

Instead, they very politely wait their turn, letting me fight them one by one. Even when it should be really, really obvious I'm coming for them next.

Wake up AIs! Appeasement won't work! If I conquer everyone in my path, join up and declare war on me BEFORE I'm up to you!

On a related note, the AI should be very alarmed when it spots transports of mine, and go to a war footing immediately. Of course by then its far too late...

Finally, another thing is how it fights. It builds some great armies, ones that even scare me! Then it marches them PAST all my cities and troops on some strange parade tour of my empire. All those great troops, well built and well concentrated ... but all they do is parade. In the meantime I conquer cities, or even worse: make peace, turning the intimidating army right back home, neutralized.

These issues seem very important to me, since Civ3 is such a warmonger game. The AI should go in with a clue instead of naivete... at present I'm a wolf among sheep.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very impressed with the AI. Further, I have no answers for this problem... but this is the major one(s) I see.

	11-06-2002 17:52									#7
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf some more points: - walking through a nation: when i tell otto & co. to get the f#ck off my land, one move later he starts crossing it again. now come on... who walks though someone else's country exept in wartime and military occupation?

This is annoying. Its ussually occurs when the civ they are at war with is on the opposite side of you. Ive pretty much given up on it, I end up just building up my military so if the AI wants to start crap during this phase, Im ready.

	11-06-2002 18:26									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras This is annoying. Its ussually occurs when the civ they are at war with is on the opposite side of you. Ive pretty much given up on it, I end up just building up my military so if the AI wants to start crap during this phase, Im ready.

once it happened to me, that india (to my north) was at war with france (south). there was a 1-tile wide passage with one of my cities to the north of it and then all purple indians. well, i was annoyed by those crossing soldiers, so i gave 'em map making and blocked off the passage with a defence unit... now the AI didn't really realize it and was waiting with over 20 units in the city radius of my city in the north... blocking so i couldn't improve the tiles... i didn't dare to ask those guys to get out because i was in a full scale war with russia and germany, so i was stuck with a isolated and more or less useless city up north...

	11-06-2002 18:28									#9
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Another thing... AIs seem really really bad at culture early on. Every single game I play, the histiograph for culture has a huge bulge in my favor early on. Maybe an early temple wouldn't hurt... this just seems very noticiable.

	11-06-2002 18:46									#10
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The parade comment above is particularly on target.

The ability of the AI to concentrate forces has improved. Now it needs to get meaner in the use of such stacks. The AI needs to try to seek out and destroy the human's military by choosing an important city and attacking in force. It should not be easily diverted toward seeking out targets that are easy to beat while losing critical time in moving the main army into a confrontation with the human civ's main army.

In a related idea, I believe the AI's research decisions are poor in the modern era. The AI seems to want nukes more than modern armour and, incredibly, will research recycling in the middle of a SS race.

	11-06-2002 18:54									#11
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quote: Originally posted by nato They never seem to wake up to the idea that I am out to conquer the entire world, and they WILL be next as soon as I have conquered their neighbor. Instead, they very politely wait their turn, letting me fight them one by one. Even when it should be really, really obvious I'm coming for them next.

Ironically, other players complain that the AI gangs up on them all the time.

	11-06-2002 19:00									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Zachriel Ironically, other players complain that the AI gangs up on them all the time.

well, after UN the AI should change and try and make peace, but group up against any aggressor, especially against weaker players. kind of like an MPP over multiple countries.

to make it more realistic, maybe they should only help, if the country posesses valuable resources like oil, aluminium or uranium (see kuwait, the US+UK wouldn't have cared if there weren't so much black gold down there )

	11-06-2002 20:32									#13
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quote: Ironically, other players complain that the AI gangs up on them all the time.

Well I really find that hard to believe.

Even when I am as powerful as everyone else put together, even when I have consistantly done nothing but attack and devour civ after civ, right in a row, even when I am almost done killing their immediate neighbor, even when my huge army is right next to their borders ... they're still living in some peaceful oblivion!

"Wow! You really trashed my ex-neighbors ... sure hate for that to happen to me. You've really left a long trail of dead civs to get to my border. My, that is a lot of Horsemen you brought with you ... hmm? Sure I'll sell you my world map for 30 gold! ... What's that? War?! On ME?!"

Like I say, they are very polite. They all took their numbers, and are very good about waiting in line for their turn.

Maybe other people have found themselves the victim of the AI feeding frenzy that is sometimes observed ... all I know is my AIs wait their turn...

Again, I'm impressed by the AI overall ... but if I was looking to improve it, this would be an area I'd consider, since Civ3 is so warmonger. For instance, if the human kills 2 civs, maybe the AI should become much more wary/militant ... most important, they should gang up on you when it becomes obvious you're not going to stop.

	11-06-2002 20:45									#14
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quote: Originally posted by nato For instance, if the human kills 2 civs, maybe the AI should become much more wary/militant ... most important, they should gang up on you when it becomes obvious you're not going to stop.

ok, but on the other hand some computer-played civs like declaring war on me. i hardly ever do it. but if they trigger a war, i'll make sure they regret it and i usually wipe them off the map...
how should the AI react in those moments?
and what happens if i destroy every city except one small village in the desert or somewhere up in the highlands where they'll take millennias to arise again?

btw: does the AI make a difference if i raze or take a city?

	11-06-2002 20:51									#15
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Sure, it should be different if the AI declared war on the human. That shouldn't count against you.

I'm talking about wars I, the human (I hope!), started. Blatant acts of unprovoked aggression in which I go from friendly to devouring their entire civ in a few turns. Repeatedly.

About leaving one small city ... harder to call. Effectively it is the same, but might be hard to program that for the AI. Anyway, who can bear to let that voice calling your conquests to culture flip stay alive?

The AI gets very angry when you raze, it does make a difference.

	11-06-2002 23:29									#16
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I personnally dislike how easy it is to get the AI to attack you while your infantry is fortified on a mountain top. Just put a worker under that stack of infantry and the AI will through EVERYTHING it has at you even though it has zero chance of winning. Once the AI has pissed away all of its units you just walk right in and take over its cities.

A human player would wait until you come off of your mountain then attack you or better yet get you to attack him.

	12-06-2002 00:11									#17
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I love how people complain about exploits they have to actually do themselves, that rarely happens naturally. Just don't do it, and it won't happen. Unless tricking a few lines of code is how you enjoy the game.

	12-06-2002 22:52									#18
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The AI definetly needs to have a better evaluation of their situation before they go to war. I once had an AI declare war on me with barely enough units to defend themselves. The AI seems to go to war on a whim usually with little preparation, although sometimes this is not the true, it happens too often. The AI needs to decide to go to war and then spend several turns preparing for it. Once it reaches this decision, there should be some sort of subroutine that will prepare itself for a large-scale war, which will inevitably happen if it messes with me.