12-06-2002 01:53									#31
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Vesayen - you're right, that too has been the problem in Sweden, unlike Denmark and Norway which were occupied and therefore had the entire Nazi issued settled by 1945.

	12-06-2002 01:54									#32
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quote:

"They're going to include homosexuality in the category of hate speech."

Okay, what exactly does that mean in Sweden? How is "hate speech" defined and what is the penalty? And are you allowed to speak "hatefully" in your home, in public or at all?

	12-06-2002 02:01									#33
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Why would you want to be able to speak hatefully anyway? Sod free speech - why should anyone be able to say anything offensive or hateful at all?

	12-06-2002 02:02									#34
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Okay, what exactly does that mean in Sweden? How is "hate speech" defined and what is the penalty? And are you allowed to speak "hatefully" in your home, in public or at all?

The overall point is that no matter what the article says, it won't be illegal just to oppose homosexuality. With regards to your question, there's no concrete border, of course, but note that my primary intent wasn't really to defend paragraphs. It was to demonstrate how embarrasing sites such as family.org manipulate and twist the truth to further their own agendas, and shouldn't be regarded trustworthy sources of information by you or anybody.

	12-06-2002 02:05									#35
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I'm not an expert on laws but hate speech would probably be something like gross slander in public of the group. "Gays are sinfull, evil and the root to all problems in society and families." would propably come close. But don't take my word for it....

	12-06-2002 02:11									#36
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I don't rely on family.org for anything. That is why I am asking for Swedes or informed people on this to clarify what the reality is. And I have no desire to speak hatefully. The question is, what is the definition of "hate" in Sweden?

	12-06-2002 02:11									#37
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I know Denmark has a similar law, which IIRC was last enforced when a politician expressed his concern "The Muslims who come here are merely waiting until they're strong enough in numbers, before they take over the country and blahblahblah."

What's wrong with saying that? While I don't agree, why should it be against the law?

While we're at it, Neonazism should be legalized.

	12-06-2002 02:13									#38
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OK, I can tell you how the (rarely enforced) paragraph 266b in Danish penal code sounds, and given the similarity of Scandinavian legislation, one would think the Swedish one is approximately the same. My humble and quickly made translation:

"He who in public or with the intent of publishment in wider circles makes a statement which threatens or ridicules because of race, colour of skin, national or ethnic origns, faith or sexual preference is punished with a fine, a *** or max 2 years of prison."

*** = I don't know the English word. It's when they let you don't go to jail unless you repeat the offense or commit another.

	12-06-2002 02:14									#39
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I find that law to be a gross abridgement of freedom of speech.

	12-06-2002 02:15									#40
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Thanks Monk. I think the word is probation.

	12-06-2002 02:17									#41
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I think that we are learning the difference here between Europe and the United States.

	12-06-2002 02:25									#42
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I think that we are learning the difference here between Europe and the United States.

What do you think constitutes the difference? Given our new government, the paragraph won't last long, and it's used about once a year IIRC.

	12-06-2002 02:27									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Okay, what exactly does that mean in Sweden? How is "hate speech" defined and what is the penalty? And are you allowed to speak "hatefully" in your home, in public or at all?

I won't debate this, but just to prevent some misconceptions.

Examples from an editorial on this. My translation and censoring the slurs (don't wanna look to lack tact ). Plus, see Monk's post on when these statements could be considered inflammatory.

"Tasso Stafilides, openly homosexual member of parliament for the Left Party (Vänsterpartiet), told of the threats he receives. 'Exterminate the **** plague,' 'Homosexuality is a mental illness that must be exterminated,' 'Society must rid it self of you ****' [...]"

	12-06-2002 02:27									#44
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The laws and trials have different roles and rules outside of the US and other english-inspired countries.

There has been a law like this about nazism before as mentioned and there has not been a wave of arrests because of that.

If I would insult someone ( a individual) in public in the US I would probably be sued (while apparantly I should be allowed to say the same about minorites) and I'm stopped from saying such normal worlds as ****, **** etc on something as innocent as a internet forum.

I'm a bit uneasy about that kind of laws myself though. It's a result of political correctness going a bit overboard. That happens on both sides of the atlantic.

	12-06-2002 02:28									#45
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Oh, and DanS - Neo-nazism is very much legal here, which should indicate that it's not a law to be seriously afraid of.

	12-06-2002 02:35									#46
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Was a bit about this in Aftonbladet, the Swedish leftist rag for the masses - tits & welfare! - a while ago. Thr cristian democrats were worried you wouldn't be able to quote from the Bible no more, the homosexual lobby thought all hate would now magically disappear and promised to send out undercover agents to churches to make sure that only the correct creed was heard in the fair country of Sweden.

As far as I can tell, the new law means you get away with saying just about anything about homosexuals as long as the state doesn't want to fry your ass. If the do, bang, you're gone. This isn't anyting new here, unfortunately - the Swedish state has a couple of things that pass for laws that deliver justice a la carte already.

	12-06-2002 02:35									#47
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Oh well, I guess I will have to learn Swedish to get to the bottom of this. Thanks for the education though. In the United States we have hate laws as well. I was just wondering how far they go in Europe. Here it is mostly restricted speech on the Universities. It seems like those rules are similar to the hate laws in Europe in general.

	12-06-2002 02:45									#48
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Lincoln; It works like this: If you call someone in a line or on the town for "gay ****er!" a car will arrive from nowhere. A couple of men in black will drag you in and you will never be seen again. That's about the level in Sweden.

	12-06-2002 02:48									#49
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Are there many Muslims in Sweden? Would they be held equally accountable to such a law?

	12-06-2002 02:49									#50
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I guess I am safe then. I don't yell things from my car.

	12-06-2002 02:51									#51
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Yes there's quite a number of muslims and the law would obviously not give Islam a special threatment. At least in theory.

	12-06-2002 02:51									#52
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Strande: 1) Yes. 2) In theory, yes. In practice? You need to stop hitting those drugs so frickin' heavily, man.

	12-06-2002 02:51									#53
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Oops. I didn't read your post very well. I guess I am still safe though.

	12-06-2002 02:52									#54
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"in public in the US I would probably be sued"

How do you figure?

	12-06-2002 02:53									#55
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I'm always getting the impression you could be sued for pretty much everything in the US.

	12-06-2002 02:54									#56
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That's the American way -- sue thy neighbor.

	12-06-2002 03:01									#57
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Sorry- can I just rewind to this....?

quote: Bob Knight, who heads the Culture and Family Institute at Concerned Women for America, predicted...

Concerned Women for America? Sister organisation of "Confused Women for America"?

And "Bob"? Is that a woman's name?

	12-06-2002 03:06									#58
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I also checked out the website of the Swedish MP in the article. Her views on the ideal society was kind of pseudo-fascist. Small, caring communites with based on solid christian belives and all that. The original website was of cource even worse (it was american afterall ).

	12-06-2002 03:06									#59
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Do they have to be concerned about anything in general? Such as rising cheese prices?

	12-06-2002 03:11									#60
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Concerned; as in telling other people what to do and think in a desperate attempt to take their own focus from their own pathetic homwife-lifes and husbands probably banging the secretary at the same time as these so called concerend wackos are stuffing their morals down other peoples throat while wearing a prudish dress with a flower-pattern.