12-06-2002 17:50									#61
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come to think about it, the topic title is all wrong. nations cannot match politics...but yawn, back to boring spain-s. africa game...

	12-06-2002 17:52									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Oh I see, we have to keep things in the time frame you want. Talk outside the KH frame is prohibited. Well in that case KH give me your stats on the over all income level of the Soviet Leader in the 70-90s and how they bravely stood in line with the rest of the citizens.

Sprayber, do you think US of 1935 was same country as US of 1990?

Right at the same time that communism was failing the citizens of the USSR, capitalism was doing a prety good job failing the citizens of the US and Europe too.

And then of course, there's the whole rise of Hitler, subjugation of Europe and genocides...

The 1930s were a very different time, and I'm pretty glad I didn't have to live through them in either the East or West...

	12-06-2002 17:55									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I'll be impressed with communism if a communist dictator actually delivers on the supposed ideals of the system.

Castro has delivered a succesful, socialized state. Free, quality education through high school, quality medical care for all, improved rural infastructure (water, housing, roads). Cuba has participatedin the liberation of other nations throughout the world, most notably by fighting apartheid South Africa in Angola and Namimbia and defending those peoples against the US supported attack. Cuba has trained thousands of doctors from other third world countries. So while the US engages in its vengeful embargo, the rest of the world laughs and Cubano Socialism thrives.

	12-06-2002 18:01									#64
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The income disparity in the USSR was 7:1 at the worst of times, generally about 5:1. In the US, the income disparity between the top government position (Prez) and the average worker has been about 8:1. Party leaders in the US make substantially more than that (since the bulk of their income comes from non-party sources). The income disparity between the top income bracket and the average is something close to 500:1, but that only compares income and not the increase in wealth.

The reason why Cuba needs the embargo to end is not that the US has things they can't get elsewhere (with the exception of medicine), it's because it costs a lot more to import things from farther away. I believe it's seven times as expense to import grain from New Zealand to Cuba as from the US (as closer nations like Argentina won't sell to it because of the US). Europe is an importer of grain, and I'm guessing most of Canada's grain goes there.

Asher, you got proof that Cuba's air force was used for Castro to go duck hunting. That sounds a lot like BS anti-Castro propaganda, consdiering this is a guy who lives in a one room apartment.

	12-06-2002 18:10									#65
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quote: The income disparity in the USSR was 7:1 at the worst of times, generally about 5:1

Yay. I'm glad somebody else provided this because I was trying to rack my brain for the source...

	12-06-2002 18:24									#66
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Time magazine reported it in the 1980s. I think the idea was to be shocking, since the average Soviet made around $5,000 a year, while the party leadership was getting about $35,000, drving around in their excellent black sedans, having fairly nice apartments, and having special stores at which they could shop. Such ametuers compared to our elites.

	12-06-2002 18:37									#67
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OK, who's the sick weirdo who voted UK...Blairites *vomits*

	12-06-2002 18:40									#68
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As for EU trade with Cuba: The US share of say Poland's trade is less than 5 %, that of the EU more than 50 %. Proximity simply plays a role. Cuba's trade structure shoul d be roughly the reverse of that.

Cuba has a quite good education basis and should do well with open US trade and some domestic deregulation. Democracy will follow. But since when would Washington care about democracy in Latin America....

"Europe is an importer of grain"

Castro should try CAP.

	12-06-2002 18:41									#69
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ha ha ha .. although, it was not me .. i fail to see how the UK political system is blairite ??? just as it is not thatcherite *Vomit even more*

	12-06-2002 22:01									#70
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Patronizing the whorehouses of dozens of nations hardly gives you insight into their political situation. Well, depending on who you happen to meet there...

I didn't whore around that bad. There were some guys in the service...

ANyway, you learn a lot about a place by going there, dating the women, drinking with the men, (reverse if preferred. I don't...and you'll learn less...but whatever.) Only thing better is to work there and/or marry there.

	12-06-2002 22:03									#71
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Pop quiz, mofos: which of you voted for your home country?

Already said I did. All y'all that didn't...move! Carpe ****in diem. Go for what you want.

	12-06-2002 22:23									#72
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The income disparity in the USSR was 7:1 at the worst of times, generally about 5:1. In the US, the income disparity between the top government position (Prez) and the average worker has been about 8:1. Party leaders in the US make substantially more than that (since the bulk of their income comes from non-party sources). The income disparity between the top income bracket and the average is something close to 500:1, but that only compares income and not the increase in wealth.

The beauty of the American system is that the "1" in you're "500 - 1" ratio is way better off then the one in most other places.

	12-06-2002 22:27									#73
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oh yes. every roman citizen was better off than a slave

	12-06-2002 23:04									#74
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Germany for me. Healthy respect for capitalism, but a strong social welfare system.

And I love sauerkraut, mmm-mmmm.

	12-06-2002 23:23									#75
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You seem so sure of the economic situation in Cuba, Sprayber, but here's a few facts: people don't starve on the streets there,

That's not what all my relatives and friends who have actually been to Cuba have seen, and told me. Even the Cuban establishment doesn't deny that fact, even though they blame the yankees and their embargo.

The truth is that the people starve, while Castro and their colleagues eat and live pretty well. Animal Farm anyone?

	12-06-2002 23:26									#76
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No one I've known who's been to Cuba has said that Cuba is starving, Fiera. That includes Cubans. Even the rabid anti-Casto Cuban terrorists of South FLorida don't claim that Cuba is starving. Your friends are lying to you. Heck, if people were starving there, the Bush administration would be loudly shouting that fact to the whole world, don't you think?

	12-06-2002 23:30									#77
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quote: Originally posted by GP I didn't whore around that bad. There were some guys in the service...

The implication I got from this sentence was that you went to other guys for your needs rather than whores...

	12-06-2002 23:38									#78
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No one I've known who's been to Cuba has said that Cuba is starving, Fiera. That includes Cubans. Even the rabid anti-Casto Cuban terrorists of South FLorida don't claim that Cuba is starving.

They don't? You obviously haven't read any books about Castro's Cuba written by anti-Castro partisans.

quote: Your friends are lying to you.

Perhaps I'm not using the word "starving" accurately. What my friends do have told me is that any western tourist can perceive the Cuban people poverty and misery out in the streets. Not only in the favelas outskirts like in Brazil, but everywhere.

	12-06-2002 23:42									#79
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I choosed None.

But Sweden and US leads (8 votes each). Why do you really want to punish yourself?!

	12-06-2002 23:46									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Fiera Perhaps I'm not using the word "starving" accurately.

Starving means mucho hambre, no food. There are no starving in Cuba. Yes, Cuba is poor, no one denies that. But they aren't as poor as most of Latin America.

	12-06-2002 23:50									#81
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You guys should read stuff about Cuba:
http://www.salon.com/travel/feature/1999/06/12/cuba/

And does someone care to explain to me why massive "emergency food shipments" make their way to Cuba if no one is starving?

	12-06-2002 23:54									#82
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes, Cuba is poor, no one denies that. But they aren't as poor as most of Latin America.

If that makes you feel better... but I tend to think that Cuba is now level with countries which have far less resources and potential (ie, Dominican Republic).

	12-06-2002 23:55									#83
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Yeah, prostitues are soooo truthful.

Anway, I could link to so many sites about the poverty in the rest of the world its not funny. The difference between Cuba and other poor countries is that in Cuba, their poverty isn't killing them. They're life span is as long as a whie American's.

	12-06-2002 23:59									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You guys should read stuff about Cuba: http://www.salon.com/travel/feature/1999/06/12/cuba/

Interesting link, quite consistent with a few stories I've heard from people who have been there.

	13-06-2002 00:03									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Fiera I tend to think that Cuba is now level with countries which have far less resources and potential (ie, Dominican Republic).

You can think that, but the Dominican Republic is far poorer. Hell, the DR still has slavery (though not legally). There was just a massacre of workers in the DR at Cointrouea's plantaions just the other day. The DR has been a recipient of massive amounts of US interference, it has plenty of resources, beautiful beaches, why is it doing so poorly? It doesn't have the excuse of being choked and terrorised by the US.

	13-06-2002 00:03									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Fiera Interesting link, quite consistent with a few stories I've heard from people who have been there.

And no one is poor in Mexico. Even in the resort of Cancun you can see the poverty.

	13-06-2002 00:09									#87
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Yes, there are poor people in Mexico too. And you can explain poverty in DR and anywhere else in Latin America through a huge corruption, I'm not denying that.

I just don't understand why some people won't ever recognize that Castro is just a corrupted dictator, and that Cuba is not a socialist paradise where everybody is free, happy and wise.

	13-06-2002 00:19									#88
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Well, for one thing, he's not corrupted, even if some of the party elite is. He lives very modestly, whih is one of the reasons why he is still so popular in Cuba today, and even secretly among many ex-pat Cubans (expressing even the least bit of dissention to the anti-Castro crusade among Cubans in the US can get you killed, and definately ostracized, so no one says anything, but in private its a very different story).

No one says it's a paradise. Even those of us who support Cuba recognize it is a desperately poor country. Nonetheless, many ex-pat Cubans chose to return to Cuba after life in the US.