12-06-2002 14:42									#1
	Stupid HS bug Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I was messing around in a SP game (huge map, transcend) and I got a really annoying bug that I hadn't seen before. I conquered a Gaian base and gave it to my submissive, the Conciousness. I then put 2 units back in the base to defend it (I think they were a shard interceptor and a drop AAA silksteel rover defensive).

The following turn the Gaians probed the base back from the Conciousness. I wondered how this was possible because I had the hunter seeker and no one but me had alg. enhancement yet. When I checked the base I found my two units were still inside and under my control, but the base belonged to the Gaians. Then it got weirder.

I moved my rover out of the base and tried to move it back in and retake the base. The confirm odds screen came up and showed that I was attacking the plane I still had in the base. Evidently it's possible to fight yourself.

I ended up moving the plane out, taking the base, gifting it to the Conciousness again, then moving my units back in to defend it and I put a few probe teams in just in case.

Anyone else seen this bug before?

	12-06-2002 15:30									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I verified before that your probes inside a Pactmate's base DO NOT defend that base against a 3rd party probing actions. Even if they are protected by HSA.
I did also check what happens when a probing actioni s initiated against your Pactmate's stack in the field with one of your (HSA) probes stacked in it, but I can't recall the results right now.
I think it was also unexpectedly that no protection was granted... but I'm not sure.
That could make sense for the base, as a base has a clear owner. Evidently the game mechnaism allows for a Pactmate's unit to take on defense for the Pactmats' base, but a Pactmate's probe is not instead called upfront, it must be an indigenous probe, as the base installations are under attack and not the units inside. This can be questionable and debatable, but it "could" make sense somehow.
Different issue is that of your probe stacked with your Pactmate's units, as is not at all clear who should be considered the stack "owner"...

___

Then, we have the completely different aspect of handling the stacking of your units in a base or with other units, which were formerly of a pactmate and are now in enemy possession.
Evidently the game has some problems handling these situations (i.e., the programmers did not think to insert code to trap this peculiar event, or to properly debug it...).
IIRC I have seen in the past my units stacked with wild worms, or in an enemy base.
I don't think this bug is related with the HSA tho.

	12-06-2002 15:31									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I've never heard/seen of such a bug... because I never give bases to my opponents...

Well, the Gaians probing the base back seems possible... but since your units are immune to probing, they didn't change side... so your unist were left in the base of your enemy... that's odd.

About you attacking your own units... that propably is a bug. Or the enemy can use your units as a "shield"

Altogether it seems odd...

	12-06-2002 18:01									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Similar things have happened to me. I forced Yang to sign a submissive Pact... so our units shared tiles and bases... then he breaks the pact (hundred's of years later) and all hell breaks lose! I had enemy bombers taking off from my bases to bomb me! Grrr!

	12-06-2002 18:47									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

aaglo it is not necessary to gift bases to see this "feature". All it takes is two of your pactmates to declare war on each other. War can happen outside any of your bases but not from within. So pactmates who are mutual enemies can and do station themselves in the same base of yours.

I have also seen it happen when I had a unit posted in a pactmate's base. Our mutual enemy subverted the base with a probe team. My units remained stacked inside the base with my enemy's.

Of the many bugs of the game I can honestly say that this is one of the most uncommon and least annoying.

But perhaps a better way of handling mixed stacks in bases would be the instantaneous teleport them home similar to a 'demand withdrawl' or 'pact ends' situation. Then, in case one, you could allow the first faction back into your base but not the second.

Also worth noting is that when you attack an enemy base that also contains non-enemies the attack can only proceed if the best defender is your enemy. Otherwise you will get a dialogue box asking if you want to declare war on that non-enemy.

	12-06-2002 18:56									#6
	Got spare money?

Well, yeah.
But I usually don't sentry my units in the pact-mate's bases. I use them only to attack my enemies (with bombers) otherwise out of my reach.

	12-06-2002 23:51									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Phil_de_geezer Similar things have happened to me. I forced Yang to sign a submissive Pact... so our units shared tiles and bases... then he breaks the pact (hundred's of years later) and all hell breaks lose! I had enemy bombers taking off from my bases to bomb me! Grrr!

That's a pretty big bug considering that when the Pact ended all of his units should have immediately been removed from your bases.

	13-06-2002 02:49									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I don't see a reason why the presence of your troops should make mind control of a pactmate's bases impossible. Your troops should be sent home, however (which would have made things worse for you). If your probe team could defend a pactmate's base, is a game design decision. Most realistic would be "at 2/3 strength" or so, because your probe team certainly is less familiar with your mate's datalinks than his own.

	13-06-2002 03:15									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by MariOne I verified before that your probes inside a Pactmate's base DO NOT defend that base against a 3rd party probing actions. Even if they are protected by HSA. I did also check what happens when a probing actioni s initiated against your Pactmate's stack in the field with one of your (HSA) probes stacked in it, but I can't recall the results right now. I think it was also unexpectedly that no protection was granted... but I'm not sure. ...

MariO:

Is this always the case, or only the case if the pactmate(who supplies the probes) is not in vendetta with the 3rd party?

bc

	13-06-2002 03:47									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

One of the more amusing bugs is that if you garrison a probe team in a pactmates base, then use another probe team to probe the same base, your garrisoned probe team defends against your attacking probe team

	13-06-2002 06:22									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Erroneous post.

	13-06-2002 15:55									#12
	Tired of ads?

quote: That's a pretty big bug considering that when the Pact ended all of his units should have immediately been removed from your bases.

When a Pact is cancelled the two parties are usually still at peace and so the units are sent home. But he declared war straight from a Pact (which i'd never seen before) and his units remained in my bases. I was VERY surprised as i didn't think that submissive Pact mates could even cancel the Pact without a good reason (like me nerve-stapling their citizens or planet bustering someone). I figure someone must have framed me for a probe team action of somekind?

	13-06-2002 17:49									#13
	Tired of ads?

One way submissives can "declare war" on you is if one of your units, are stacked with one of your pact mates units, and the submissive attacks the pactmates unit, killing your unit in the process. This results in instant vendetta. The time it happened to me was with two colony pods (both my unit and pactmate unit). I'm not sure if it also works with normal units, or if they have to "together die".