13-06-2002 03:32									#1
	Mobilization Majority Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

We need to decide wheter 50% or 2/3 needs to vote for Mobilization for it to start.

Timeout: 5 days (yes, it might be a little long, but we won't be able to Mobilize before later anyways)

The rules are simple, the one with most votes winns. There will be one other option, and one don't care option.

	13-06-2002 03:35									#2
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50% baby. 67% is too much of a pain.

	13-06-2002 03:43									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Trip 50% baby. 67% is too much of a pain.

I'll wait with my vote until I here some more arguments. As I said what I wrote in that document were just suggestions, and some things I don't stand for myself.

	13-06-2002 03:43									#4
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It wouldn't really make sense to have limits. If the majority wants it, do it!

	13-06-2002 03:52									#5
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker It wouldn't really make sense to have limits. If the majority wants it, do it!

Well, the fact is that it's harder to leave then it is to enter. And if it is as close as the Random race a poll in leaving it could give the opposite results.

	13-06-2002 04:05									#6
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I voted yes. I have faith in the citizenry, were all civ players and we realize the consequences of entering mobilization. Therefore 50% should be fine.

	13-06-2002 04:15									#7
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Mobilization have several consequences on economy - science (can't turn it off until peace)
it should be used only in emergency cases : unexpected invasion from a powerful civ - only in the case the nation is in a danger of destruction
that's why i think a 66% of votes is more wise.

	13-06-2002 04:17									#8
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker It wouldn't really make sense to have limits. If the majority wants it, do it!

I whole-heartedly agree with this sentiment.

	13-06-2002 04:20									#9
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Is this a democracy or a republic? I say it's a democracy, thats right tyrrany of majority.

	13-06-2002 04:35									#10
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When hard decisions have to be met, and when they'll affect all of our citizens, e need the maximum amount of reasonable agreement. 2/3 is the only ay not to abuse.
Don't forget that it's not easy to come beck from wartime mobilization, and the game won't let us do so, even if 100% of the people agree.

	13-06-2002 06:57									#11
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i said 50%. because i know i'd try to abuse it

it'd be great if the "city planner" could only build military units / buildings

	13-06-2002 06:59									#12
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX it'd be great if the "city planner" could only build military units / buildings

Son of a...

	13-06-2002 06:59									#13
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Son of a...

	13-06-2002 07:33									#14
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Like Spiffor said, it's tougher to leave than enter - we should be cautious about it. Important decisions, like impeachment, are based on 2/3. If we need 2/3 to get rid of ministers, we should have 2/3 for something as important as mobilization.

Remember, a hasty mobilization against a large foe could leave us in mobilization for months - we may switch ministers several times between but if they're hamstrung by mobilization then there's no point in having such ministers.

	13-06-2002 08:35									#15
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I agree with Captain and Spiffor mobilization should require 2/3. It will be interesting to see if all the presidents decide to go for the same victory type. If one president has worked hard for a cultural victory we really need to consider the consequences before mobilizing.

	13-06-2002 08:37									#16
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Kind of like when a democrat comes in after a republican, or vice-versa? I think things will shape up nicely as far as those things go... realistic even, (You scratch my back this election, I'll scratch your next time...)

	13-06-2002 09:39									#17
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i voted other. I think maybe some of these decisions should be kept to smaller groups, like just commanders, governorns, ministers, and the president.. not the entire body of our nation.

however, that would only be if we are already in a war.. outside of a war, sure.. full consensus of 67% or more.

but i gotta ask, must every decision need a full vote of everyone joined, for a decision to be made?

	13-06-2002 09:42									#18
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*Makes sure no one's looking, and scratches his ear, but is stunned when the Civ 3 Demo Game Patrol Force bursts in, and drags me to jail for not asking first*



There certainly won't be any "Implied Powers" or "Necassary and Proper Clause" in the Constitution we'll be drafting.

	13-06-2002 10:48									#19
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Damn straight trip I'm starting to regret that I voted for the bannana

Of course some decisions will be taken soley by the ministers, but large important ones will not.

	13-06-2002 12:37									#20
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Simple. Mobilise. Declare war on gumby power, adding them to our enemies. Some time after 10 turns later make peace with Gumby and turn off Mobilisation, after we have built enough Cavalry or Tanks to swamp the world.

Bwahahahahaha.

	13-06-2002 13:42									#21
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX it'd be great if the "city planner" could only build military units / buildings

The charm of mobilization is not in this, because you can't force the city planner to change existing projects. The charm is in the fact, that you can produce military units / buildings with an increased amount of shields, similar to a GA. Mobilization is a very powerful tool, if the Empire is in need. My vote is: 50% is enough.

	13-06-2002 13:44									#22
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I voted for 2/3 because that is the option that represents REAL democracy best... What? many will say... but it´s a fact that most of all real nation MUST have a definite majority too make such important decisions as declaring war on other nations...

	13-06-2002 13:50									#23
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The US doesn't need a definite majority to declare war (OK OK attack another country) we just need the president to think it's a good idea.

	13-06-2002 18:21									#24
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Luckily, the Apolyton Democracy is not the US. I think our model of Democracy should be ancient Athens or modern day Switzerland. Any other country is just too despotic to my taste.

	13-06-2002 18:46									#25
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In line with the Opposition Party's platform of opposing things in the majority, 2/3's is best.

	13-06-2002 19:53									#26
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But... the majority is 2/3.

	13-06-2002 21:25									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The charm of mobilization is not in this, because you can't force the city planner to change existing projects. The charm is in the fact, that you can produce military units / buildings with an increased amount of shields, similar to a GA. Mobilization is a very powerful tool, if the Empire is in need. My vote is: 50% is enough.

Sir Ralph, the difficulty comes because when the current city project is completed, the city planner cannot construct anything except for military units and military buildings when in mobilization. That means, no new temples, cathedrals, marketplaces, courthouses, etc... which can really help with happiness if war weariness kicks in. Short wars where ww is not a factor, will likely only exist if we are already dominant (thus, not needing mobilization). But a long war where we mobilize may hamstring us as we fall behind in infrastructure. Mobilizing means we can't build certain wonders either and over a long period that could negate having a tech lead as well.

Deciding whether the empire is truly in need of mobilizing is something we would have to consider very carefully before doing as it is very difficult to get out of.

It may have charm, but it is tool that can hurt us as much as it helps.

	14-06-2002 03:39									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard The US doesn't need a definite majority to declare war (OK OK attack another country) we just need the president to think it's a good idea.

And a majority vote in congress

	14-06-2002 06:35									#29
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Other-- 60%.

Trevman-- Yes, we need a majority in Congress to formally declare war. On the other hand, since warmaking powers were given to the executive branch in the Constitution, the President can have the military inavde some country or other and call it something else-- "police action," for example-- and avoid a Congressional vote.

The last time America formally declared war on any nation, IIRC, was December 11, 1941 (on Germany). Since then, we've had several wars-- Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf, etc.-- and no declarations of war.

	14-06-2002 06:37									#30
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OT: Vlad if I recall correctly Desert Storm was an official war. But thanks for clarifying what I meant.