13-06-2002 03:48									#1
	Unbelievable Culture flipping Full PM-box? Change here!

I really like Civ3 but someone really has to come up with a way to improve the serious annoyances of culture flipping. I am attaching a save game that really proves my point. I am Rome and am currently the games main superpower, and am on the verge of overtaking the world. Yet Egypt who has ONE 1pop city left somehow manages to culture flip one of my cities with 7-8 military units in it..... This is utterly amazing to me and one of the biggest low points of civ3. This save game is at the end of the turn prior to the flip, so load and just end the turn and see what happens... If anyone can give me a decent reason why this city is flipping I would appreciate it. The other thing that REALLY bothers me is that if they are going to have culture flipping influenced heavily by Capital Distance they NEED to do something about the free switching of Capitals once you take a enemy capital. This would help quite a bit with the culture flipping since you could actually destroy the capital and they would have to rebuild it to get that culture advantage. Please note this is a Huge map game and is late game so might load slow on slower machines. Thanks for reading my rant!

Attachment: bigdog3.sav
This has been downloaded 13 time(s).

	13-06-2002 04:08									#2
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look at this one:



sure it was in my favor, but it's still insane

	13-06-2002 04:38									#3
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The city flips, because:

- it's not your city, but built by the Americans and obviously taken a long time ago by Egypt, who has lots of citizens in it and probably built a lot of cultural improvements in it
- it's much closer to the Egyptian capital than yours
- you have zero culture in it.
- your overall culture is only about twice as much as the Egyptian. This is not enough to be relatively flip-safe

Addiditonally, when you consider the culture flip formula (see the thread "Culture flipping exposed"), your military in it is not enough.

	13-06-2002 04:42									#4
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Uberkrux, where di u get your terrain? it looks very nice.

	13-06-2002 04:52									#5
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you're a lucky b******, Uber...

What was your total culture compared to theirs?

	13-06-2002 05:07									#6
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I don't know what everyone's problem is with culture flipping - I can honestly say that I have NEVER lost a city via culture flipping. So there

	13-06-2002 05:10									#7
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That's one heck of an empire.

Couple thought:

* You don;t need to garrison so much.

* Use your GL, you can only have one at a time.

* Turn off some of the animation... your turns must be taking FOREVER.

As to the city flipping, you need many many more units to ensure it doesn't flip. If you don't have enough, only garrison one, and have the rest on standby to re-capture if need be.

I don't think it so unreasonable that it flips, btw, as it is so far from your capitol.

	13-06-2002 05:24									#8
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Sir Ralph: I understand that there are quite a few Egyptian people in the city and it is far from my capital but my god the Egyptian capital is a ONE pop city that has moved numerous times, and New York is not even their city to begin with.... I guess it just seems like the formula is too simplistic for a city like this to be flipping. Also it does have zero culture because the city only went out of revolt that turn so I could buy the temple.

Theseus: Thanks, I garrison 3 units to make 3 people content, not like I need the extra units for warfare anyways. My GL is being saved for the Seti Lab GW that I will be researching after environmentalism and I have a very high end computer, my turns don't take very long and I like the animations hehe. Did you see my massive force that is about to attack the Iroqious? . And the unreasonable part that I am getting at is the current state of the Egyptian empire. Had the city flipped to the aztecs or something I wouldn't have a problem but to flip to a dead empire seems stupid to me.

Oh well thanks for taking a look I guess I will try pulling 80-90 garrisoned infantry and moving them there to see if it prevents the flip.

	13-06-2002 05:30									#9
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I see you are a player after my own heart: massive concentration of force. Use it to prevent flips as well.

I didn't think through the use of the GL... I see one, and I start slavering "Army, Army, Army."

Good game.

I'm using an old P3-500, and couldn;t bear the thought of watching all the units... what do you have that's good enough that it's not a problem?

	13-06-2002 05:32									#10
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YuMMz: The # of Egyptians in the city as well as the culture they built in there matters for flipping. This occurs often on captured cities.

Uber: Geez, this webserver uses 1337 as http port, which was blocked by my firewall... Are you 1337? I was confused, because everyone but me seemed to see the picture. Good one, though .

	13-06-2002 05:37									#11
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Uber: I really like the graphics too... what are they?

	13-06-2002 05:37									#12
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quote: Originally posted by AzNtoccata Uberkrux, where di u get your terrain? it looks very nice.

That's Sn00py's stuff, wonderful Jungles don't ya think? It's over in the Files area.

	13-06-2002 05:42									#13
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quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 I don't know what everyone's problem is with culture flipping - I can honestly say that I have NEVER lost a city via culture flipping. So there

You have to admit though, UberKrux's example is a bit ridiculous. A city more than twice the size of all it's neighbours combined, and having a Great Wonder, should never flip.

	13-06-2002 05:54									#14
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quote: Originally posted by AzNtoccata Uberkrux, where di u get your terrain? it looks very nice.

files section. sn00pz

	13-06-2002 05:55									#15
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quote: Originally posted by YuMMz Sir Ralph: I understand that there are quite a few Egyptian people in the city and it is far from my capital but my god the Egyptian capital is a ONE pop city that has moved numerous times, and New York is not even their city to begin with.... I guess it just seems like the formula is too simplistic for a city like this to be flipping. Also it does have zero culture because the city only went out of revolt that turn so I could buy the temple. Theseus: Thanks, I garrison 3 units to make 3 people content, not like I need the extra units for warfare anyways. My GL is being saved for the Seti Lab GW that I will be researching after environmentalism and I have a very high end computer, my turns don't take very long and I like the animations hehe. Did you see my massive force that is about to attack the Iroqious? . And the unreasonable part that I am getting at is the current state of the Egyptian empire. Had the city flipped to the aztecs or something I wouldn't have a problem but to flip to a dead empire seems stupid to me. Oh well thanks for taking a look I guess I will try pulling 80-90 garrisoned infantry and moving them there to see if it prevents the flip.

didnt check the save but in a despotism only 2 can make people content (martial law) what govt you in?

	13-06-2002 05:57									#16
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 you're a lucky b******, Uber... What was your total culture compared to theirs?

i dont know, thats an old game (possibly with 1.17) that i dont have anymore :-/

	13-06-2002 05:58									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Willem A city more than twice the size of all it's neighbours combined, ..., should never flip.

Now that I mention it, they neglected an important part of culture. It's not just about buildings and infrastructure, it's about the people living in a community as well. We all live our lives according to what our cultures consider to be norms. Even without Temples, Libraries etc., our values are reinforced with everyone we meet or associate with. And the larger the city, the more people there are to support our particular views towards life, and so our culture.

	13-06-2002 06:17									#18
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UberKruX, that has to be the coolest screenshot of Civ III I have ever seen. I'm just imagining the 'Woot!' being animated with music whenever a city with a wonder flips to you. I'm still laughing.

	13-06-2002 06:28									#19
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Here's another pic, one of the people there at CivFanatics posted. I have never seen an AI to refuse a flipping city, he has.

Attachment: refused.jpg
This has been downloaded 366 time(s).

	13-06-2002 08:02									#20
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Thesus: I am using a p4 1.7g 512MB RAM, 2 30GB ATA 100 Drives, and a Asus ti4400 video card. Civ runs just fine I used to occasionally get pauses at the end of my turn but as of ver. 1.21 that has not happened since.

UberKrux: I am in Monarchy, I just can't bring myself to switch since in Communism I have to sacrifice lives to hurry production while in Monarchy I can just spend money which the computer seems to love to give me plenty of, which I think is another flaw but not on topic.

	13-06-2002 10:23									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Here's another pic, one of the people there at CivFanatics posted. I have never seen an AI to refuse a flipping city, he has.

I hope they got some bonus points for that one, it certainly is a rare occasion.

Sn00py's graphics sure are getting around aren't they?

	13-06-2002 11:04									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Here's another pic, one of the people there at CivFanatics posted. I have never seen an AI to refuse a flipping city, he has.

This happend to me once. Quite an entertaining moment on Warlord actually.

Relations between myself and China were getting worse and worse. He was furious with me, and we were on the brink of war. Well, Kiev decided to flip but then suddenly China didn't recognize it.

Too bad I crushed them 25 or so turns later.

	13-06-2002 11:51									#23
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uberkrux, I'm not sure which version of Sn00py's thing to d/l....is it the terrain patch or the april 6th version or somethign? Guh..I don't know what I'm talking about. Could u spoon feed me the link plez?

	14-06-2002 23:27									#24
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I have only one thing to say about culture flipping: Hong Kong and the Panama Canal.

	15-06-2002 01:20									#25
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Eastern Germany, perhaps? Happened at my doorstep, succeeded despite of garrisoned forces and was very impressive.

	15-06-2002 04:46									#26
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quote: Originally posted by MosesPresley I have only one thing to say about culture flipping: Hong Kong and the Panama Canal.

Is that the best the defenders of Firaxis' non-historical Culture Flipping IDIOCY can do??

Hong Kong did not "Culture Flip". Nor did the British garrison inside magically vanish. The inevitability of MILITARY action ffom the gigantic Chinese army, along with the end of Colonialism, convinced the British to SIGN IT OVER. And even now it is not entirely part of China what with certain economic and political rights guaranteed by the agreement.

The Panama Canal was SIGNED OVER by Jimmy Carter, and the U.S. garrison didn't vanish into thin air there either. Before that agreement there was much talk about GUERRILLA WARFARE and COMMUNIST SUBVERSION in Panama - so MILITARY action motivated Carter. And he was wrong to do so in many peoples' opinions.

East Germany and the Eastern Block collapsed by way of ECONOMIC REASONS. They were all bankrupt.

Culture can have an overall destabilizing effect on another society, but Flipping cities - and borders flipping over my resources - is bullbleep.


Of all the aspects of Culture Flipping that are absurd razing is the worst in which a single units came magically make an entire city and its population of millions instantly vanish. Poof!

None of it ever happened. When you take History 101 in college you can ask your professor.

	15-06-2002 04:58									#27
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Coracle, Coracle, this is the last time I respond to you. This game is NOT an historical simulation!

If it were:

No America until the 1700's
No Aztecs in the modern age.
NO Russia,Britain,Germany,France either.


This is a game, quit whining that it isn't historically accurate. Of course it isn't, it isn't supposed to be accurate.

What would be the point?

	15-06-2002 05:06									#28
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Yup, it's the best I can do.

Coracle you hate the game. Why do you keep posting here and complaining about it? You must be a masochist to keep playing a game that gives you so much pain.

The culture flip is just another abstract way of handling real world events. East Germany, Berlin, the Philipines, the Confederate States, Hong Kong, the Panama Canal, South Vietnam, South Korea, all of the Soviet satellite states, etc. There are countless historical examples of culture flipping. I feel the game's mechanics handle the concept just fine.

Last edited by MosesPresley on 15-06-2002 at 08:38

	15-06-2002 05:13									#29
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Obviously no one is capable of defending the indefensible - and Culture Flipping is INDEFENSIBLE, and not just historically, but also in terms of the weird way it is implemented in the game.

If Fiiraxis wanted to sell us a FANTASY game they should not have used the cachet of "Sid Meier's Civilization" and also told us up front the game is fantasy and a step BACK from Civ 2, not a step forward as we hoped for years it would be.

Tuberski, keep you promise and stop wasting my time with your personal attacks. BTW, I despise certain ELEMENTS of the game, and those which have been left out such as scenarios. I paid my fifty bucks; I offer my opinion.

I'm still playing it though. so maybe Firaxis gets the last laugh. . .

	15-06-2002 05:23									#30
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I've never personally attacked you. I am suprised you actually responded though.

You come off sounding like you hate the game, but as you say, your still playing it.

I, however, comeoff as loving the game, and I haven't played it in over a month.

Oh, and since you have finally responded, I will remove you from my signature.