13-06-2002 05:33									#1
	Game Ideas Put an end to popups!

Here are some game ideas. If they have been mentioned already, I apologize. I just came up with these as I was giving Gandhi a good a--whipping.

Changes to the Ancient Tech Tree:

1. Monotheism should take the place of Monarchy on the Ancient Tech Tree. The prereq. "Warrior Code" should be changed to "Literature."

Why? The form of government known as Monarchy really only takes shape in the Middle Ages as local despots (barons) begin to come together to form nations under an uber-baron (or king). Kingships in ancient times are really more akin to Despotism. Also, from a pragmatic point of view, Monarchy at this stage of the game allows science and production to accelerate too rapidly so that by the 1500s (give or take a couple hundred years depending on your difficulty level), civs are rolling out tanks, bombers and cruise missiles.

Monotheism, on the other hand, develops early in the history of ideas. Judaism definetly adopted Monotheism sometime between 800-500 B.C.E., and possibly as early as 1200-1500 B.C.E. Moreover, Monotheism and the practice of Theology eventually forms the basis for the idea of the Divine Right of Kings and hence, Monarchy. With respect to changing the Prereq's, obviously Warrior Code has nothing to do with Monotheism. On the other hand, the development of literature, such as the Bible, does lead to the codified religious ideas, such as Monotheism.

Changes to the Medieval Tech Tree:

Theology --> Monarchy --> Free Artistry
***|********* |**|
***|********* |**-----------> Music Theory
***|********* |
***|********-------> Constitution
***|********|
***|**Printing Press
***|*****|
***--> Education

1. Theology now leads to Monarchy and Education

2. Monarchs tend to be patrons of the arts and therefore, Monarchy now leads to Free Artistry and Music Theory.

3. Education no longer leads to Music Theory but it does lead to the Printing Press. It is after all the proliferation of academic treatises that leads to the need for the Printing Press.

4. Printing Press and Monarchy now lead to a new advance called "Constitution". This Scientific Advance allows a civilization to build a New Medieval Small Wonder, namely "The Constitution." This wonder can only be built if a civ's government is a Republic or a Monarchy (no Despots please). It has a culture rating of "4". It reduces corruption by 25% in all cities as the rule of law now governs the society. It also allows Civs to avoid Anarchy when switching Gov't. Last but not least, it is necessary to have "The Constitution" before switching to a "Democracy" (you'll still have to research Democracy, though).

Changes to the Industrial Tech Tree:

Democracy --> Nationalism --> Fascism

1. Democracy now moves to the Industrial Age and starts the Tech Tree (just as Nationalism does presently). Democracy, and the sense of empowerment it gives the citizenry, leads to Nationalism.

2. Nationalism continues to lead to Communism and Espionage, as it did before, but now it also leads to Fascism. The "Fascism" Scientific Advance permits the selfsame form of Gov't.

Fascism

You rule over a people consumed by Nationalistic Fervor. Overcome with Nationalism, the people produce more and provide almost limitless support for your military aspirations.

Military police: Same as Communism

Corruption and Waste: Same as Democracy; Your people are devoted to the Nation!

Production: Same as "War-Time" Democracy

Resource Support: 3 units/town, 6 units/city, 12 units/metropolis. Each unit above is 1 gold/turn.

Special Conditions:

* All Foreign Nationals in your Cities are Unhappy All the Time! (Do I need to explain this one?)

* One Additional Commerce in any Square Producing one; after all, Fascists were Capitalists.

* Cities Immune to External Propaganda

* Workers work 75% Faster

* You can Only Build Military Units and Improvements, Wonders and Small Wonders

* Draft one Citizen/ turn. No effect on Happiness.

* No War Weariness

* All Democratic and Republican civs are always "Furious" with your civ; they are very likely to declare war on you. Alliances, Protection Pacts, and Embargos can only be negotiated with Monarchists, Communists, Despots, or other Fascists.
------------------------------------------------

More changes:

1. Wall Street should come with "The Corporation" Advance in the Industrial Period.

2. The Pentagon should be a Modern Advance; maybe with Computers.

3. Players should have the ability to group units together for movement purposes. They would not fight like an army. The units would simply move together as one unit.

4. The Apollo Program should be available with Rocketry and yield the "Space Flight" advance once it is constructed (if it has not already been discovered in the mean time).

----------------------------------------------------

Well, there you have it. Some of my ideas. What do you think?

Last edited by ckweb on 13-06-2002 at 05:48

	13-06-2002 05:44									#2
	Got spare money?

Oh, I left out one more idea.

1. Dump the "Longevity" Wonder (by the time it appears, civs have no problem generating growth) and instead, have new Modern Great Wonder, "Global Media & Communications" that comes with Satellites. The "Global Media" Advance increases culture rating in every city on its continent by 50%.

Oh, one more idea came to me:

1. "The Wheat Board" Industrial Age Small Wonder. Excess grain from cities, over and above the granaries (if the city has one), is pooled and distributed when necessary to starving cities. The grain can also be traded to other civs in much the same way as a resource or luxury.

	13-06-2002 06:09									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I like the Facist idea, & hope it get's in the game. (although not neccisarily like you have it, but the same philosiphy) I don't agree with these though;

quote: 1. Wall Street should come with "The Corporation" Advance in the Industrial Period.

I like it as is, you can't have WAll Street without banks.

quote: 2. The Pentagon should be a Modern Advance; maybe with Computers.

THe Pentagon was created around WW2, far before computers were around.

quote: 3. Players should have the ability to group units together for movement purposes. They would not fight like an army. The units would simply move together as one unit.

Being done in PTW.

quote: 4. The Apollo Program should be available with Rocketry and yield the "Space Flight" advance once it is constructed (if it has not already been discovered in the mean time).

Space flight existed before Apollo, it just wasn't (nessicarily) aimed at The Moon.

	13-06-2002 07:02									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

About Wall Street, "The Corporation" Advance presupposes that you already have Banks. What is Wall Street without the Stock Market and the Stock Market needs Corporations?

About the Pentagon, I just think it needs to be moved to the Modern Era. I really don't care which advance its connected to. Personally, I think it should be rennamed too. The Pentagon is too civ-specific.

About Space Flight/Apollo, no duh! I just think the goal to reach the moon became possible with the advance of Rocketry.

	13-06-2002 07:25									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by ckweb About Space Flight/Apollo, no duh! I just think the goal to reach the moon became possible with the advance of Rocketry.

You can't just strap a man to a rocket & shoot him to the moon, you need a pressurized chamber & suit, therefore you need space flight.

	13-06-2002 13:51									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Fair Enough.

	13-06-2002 15:49									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

monarchy is at the END of the ancient age, and isnt required to advance. by the time you have it (unless you DIVE for it) you're in the midieval ages.

	14-06-2002 04:51									#8
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hi ,

Wall-street should be a great wonder , a central bank on top of that for each civ .

the same for the forbidden palace , and some kind of a "state" capital , a small palace with some power , for every 5-10 city's , and it should be placed at a certain distance from each other , ....

have a nice day

	14-06-2002 04:59									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I concur with UberKrux, Monarchy should be available in the middle or even near the beginning of the ancient age. As it stands right now, Monarchy is not necessary for advancement and it does seem like it was just stuck at the end of the ancient age (along with the Hanging Gardens) just to give it a spot.

	14-06-2002 10:16									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

automatic slave emancipation in modern era. all slave workers start costing gold, and stop working until 1) added to city population 2) workers are repatriated with original civ or 3) a compensation in gold is paid for each slave worker (to the civ stolen from) and they then work at full speed (keeping their identity, naturally). slaves cannot be disbanded after emancipation! if you allow nonworking freed slaves to be captured by another civ, major loss in reputation and loss of happiness in your civ. in other words, you have to pay now for that prosperity you got through slavery.

having regiments of slave labor in a modern democracy or republic is odd.

there should also be some kind of cumulative penalty for continued use of slave workers even before the modern age. it is too easy now to capture huge crews of slaves and pay nothing for them to build your entire road and rail network. every road they build, every irrigation, every action should accumulate a penalty. happiness and/or reputation. that includes slave trading (selling your own workers)!

	14-06-2002 15:56									#11
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quote: Originally posted by eewolf automatic slave emancipation in modern era. all slave workers start costing gold, and stop working until 1) added to city population 2) workers are repatriated with original civ or 3) a compensation in gold is paid for each slave worker (to the civ stolen from) and they then work at full speed (keeping their identity, naturally). slaves cannot be disbanded after emancipation! if you allow nonworking freed slaves to be captured by another civ, major loss in reputation and loss of happiness in your civ. in other words, you have to pay now for that prosperity you got through slavery. having regiments of slave labor in a modern democracy or republic is odd. there should also be some kind of cumulative penalty for continued use of slave workers even before the modern age. it is too easy now to capture huge crews of slaves and pay nothing for them to build your entire road and rail network. every road they build, every irrigation, every action should accumulate a penalty. happiness and/or reputation. that includes slave trading (selling your own workers)!

WRONG. just because america is against slavery doesnt mean other nations are. America was built on a lot of work from slaves, everyone forgets that one.

America was given a huge base for expansion / production / agriculture based on SLAVE LABOR. when other countries of the world try to do the same, we call it a human rights violoation and fly half way around the world to bomb the huts and farms the slaves built.

hypocrites.

	14-06-2002 20:54									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX WRONG. just because america is against slavery doesnt mean other nations are. America was built on a lot of work from slaves, everyone forgets that one.

i don't disagree with that. and i think there should be a benefit for countries that use slaves. that is historical. and i think civ iii does a simple passable job with that by allowing slave labor to be free of charge but 1/2 the production value.

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX America was given a huge base for expansion / production / agriculture based on SLAVE LABOR.

again, we have no argument here. the expansion of america and europe was based largely on the slave trade.

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX when other countries of the world try to do the same, we call it a human rights violoation and fly half way around the world to bomb the huts and farms the slaves built.

i agree here, too. but i think you would have to agree that in the information age (modern age), the slave trade has more penalties than prior. and that would be especially true for republics and democracies. and there is a penalty for prior slaving (strikes, riots, segregation, violence, assassination, etc. all summed up as civil unrest). in civ terms, i think this could be shown in unhappiness in the population.

we could go on about sweat shops and corporate power and such as continued enslavement and that would be true. but it is not as easy for the slavers to do their dirty work now. they pay to hide it and pay penalties when found out.

i am just putting an idea out there to show some difference in the modern age. i suppose automatic emancipation is too much. perhaps a better approach would be to increase the penalties for slave labor in the higher forms of government with another increase entering the modern age.

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX hypocrites.

yes, in the news daily.

	14-06-2002 21:34									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Things I would like to see:

- air units can Bombard (lethally) naval units
- stealth bombers can carry/drop tac. nukes
- AEGIS Cruisers can carry/deploy cruise missiles
- More Government variety (It would be best if there were three distinct Governments for each age, though I think adding Fascism and perhaps something else would be enough)
- make Marines 10.6.1
- make Paratroopers 6.12.1
- reduce Modern Armor's defence to 12

I think that's it.
Anyway, so far the patch has helped a lot.

	15-06-2002 01:13									#14
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hi ,

more buildings like a hotel-motel , a supermarket , a school , .....

more units , a B-52 , and a bigger range of airunits , a second UU for each civ

maybe some civ's should get 2-3 UU and other's only 1 .

religion , example this civ is islamic , this one catholic , this one protestant , ....etc , this tech or building is cheaper for this religion then this , ....

have a nice day

	15-06-2002 23:44									#15
	Move Forbidden Palace Support Apolyton

Players should be able to move the Forbidden Palace like the normal Palace. What was an optimal place for a second capital in mid-game, isn't so by late game.

	15-06-2002 23:53									#16
	Re: Move Forbidden Palace Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Indignator Players should be able to move the Forbidden Palace like the normal Palace. What was an optimal place for a second capital in mid-game, isn't so by late game.

hi ,

the best thing would be to put a forbidden palace as a great wonder , and small "local" governments , like a state capital "palace" , .....one for every 10 city's , and at least 20 squares from the capital and so on , ...

have a nice day

	16-06-2002 01:39									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

about slave emancipation:

Instead of just having it 'happen' in Modern era, have instead an 'emancipation act' as a small wonder that is REQUIRED for Women's Suffrage and other civil-rights based wonders.

When researched, all slave workers have a 33/33/33 chance of joining the nearest city, returning to their home civ (assuming that that civ has also researched the emancipation act), or becoming barbarian class riflemen.

Aside from allowing future wonders, the emancipation act will cause a short-term unhappiness in your empire (say, the same as a revolution), but a long-term happiness and culture bonus.

Thus, if you have a lot of slaves in your empire, and a lot of land to build on, you might just skip it completly and accept the wonder losses.

As for religion:

I do hope Firaxis doesn't include this. Theres too much of a risk for problems. If they were all totally equal (and not offensive, i.e. Islamic = military bonuses, Judaism = expansionistic bonuses) and all religions were represented, MAYBE. But lets face it, if you're playing a game with a bunch of low-brow americans, and you set your civ's religion as islamic, you know what's going to happen to you. Try playing AoE II online, and picking Saracens as your civ. Watch what names you're called.

	16-06-2002 02:31									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX WRONG. just because america is against slavery doesnt mean other nations are. America was built on a lot of work from slaves, everyone forgets that one. America was given a huge base for expansion / production / agriculture based on SLAVE LABOR. when other countries of the world try to do the same, we call it a human rights violoation and fly half way around the world to bomb the huts and farms the slaves built. hypocrites.

One tends to forget that the American South was the primary benefitter of slavery, most other states had outlawed the in the few years after revolution. Also, it was the South that was torched in the American Civil War. The South didn't recover for a century. Meanwhile, the rest of the country acheived prosperity thanks to natural-born citizens and willing immigrants. (An idea I wish existed in Civ3). To call a nation hypocritical presupposes the mores of one's time should have been obvious to the ancients, i.e. the Catholic Church is hypocritical because they imprisoned Galileo for heresy, but now they support scientific experimentations and free thought.

Incidentally, I would like to see a nation that did not acheive power without some form of slavery, whether serfdom in Russia and Eastern and Central Europe, Slavery in the Middle East (Janissaries and the like), and yes, even all those slaves shipped to the West Indies and even more recently, the merciless slavery of the Congo and the East Indians.

	16-06-2002 02:38									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Mikhail about slave emancipation: But lets face it, if you're playing a game with a bunch of low-brow americans, and you set your civ's religion as islamic, you know what's going to happen to you. Choose the Saracens in AoEII. See what names you're called.

As a liberal, open minded, tolerant American citizen, thank you for the wonderful nick-name for all of us. We were just trying to find a way to stereotype us all, and you just gave us a great idea. We shall be sure to contact you and your brilliant, constantly intuitive European comrades in the future.
Choose to travel as an American, see what names you're called.