13-06-2002 06:54									#1
	Sioux city names vs. Iroqouis city names Remove this text

Looking back on the old Sioux names from Civ 2 i have decieded that I actually prefer them, as they have much more of a "native american" feel to them so I have recently added them to Civ 3 through the magic of the editor. And call me crazy, but I personally think "Little Bighorn" is cooler for a capital than some minor city in New York (Salamanca).
For those who are interested, here are the Sioux city names.

Little Bighorn
Wounded Knee
Cedar Creek
Slim Buttes
Three Forks
Stony Lake
Killdeer
Bear Paw
Big Mound
Wood Lake
Dead Buffalo
Point of Rocks
Raging Brook
Running Bear
Silver Moon
Wildcat Valley
Great River
Seven Brothers
Snake Canyon
First Wind
Yellowtree
Chief's Crag
Morning Rock

	13-06-2002 13:36									#2
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I always thought Salamanca was a city in Spain.

	13-06-2002 14:29									#3
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A lot of places in the world are called Salamanca, or have Salamanca in their names. Heck, I've even seen places in Australia called Salamanca.

But the main one seems to be the city in Spain.


Anyway, back on topic, I definitely agree that the Sioux city names do have a more native American feel to them than the Iroquois cities.

Last edited by Jethro83 on 13-06-2002 at 17:03

	13-06-2002 14:36									#4
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Yep exactly, Salamanca is a very famous Spanish city, and this will no doubt create a conflict or two come PTW.
I suggest all Civers switch over to the Sioux city names and avoid this bleak future.

	13-06-2002 16:20									#5
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Yep exactly, Salamanca is a very famous Spanish city, and this will no doubt create a conflict or two come PTW. I suggest all Civers switch over to the Sioux city names and avoid this bleak future.

The original name of Salamanca, NY is Bucktooth.

But having Salamanca as the capital is absolutely ridiculous anyway: the town was not even founded until 1854! The true capital of the Iroquois capital was and is Onondaga, which doesn't even appear on Firaxis' city list .....

The namegiving of Iroquois cities is not unsimilar to that of the Sioux (and other North Amerinds), but of course you don't see that if you don't speak Iroquois.
Still, some of the towns (also) have names in European languages which should appeal to you, such as: Oil Springs, Buffalo Creek, Saint Regis, Brantville, Lac des Deux Montagnes, Catherine's Town, Salt Saint Louis, Grand River, Ogdensburgh.

Personally, I prefer names like Ganaraske, Teyagon, Akwesasne,
Cattaraugus, Saratoga, Allegany, Buckaloon etc. over their translations.

	13-06-2002 18:23									#6
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Could any of the Lakota cities/towns you name actually be considered as such?

	14-06-2002 09:32									#7
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i think that a fair job was done for city names for the iroquois (actually the "iroquois" people called themselves Haudenosaunee. the algonquin called them the Iroqu, a slur meaning rattlesnake, and the french added the ending). i found this out here: www.tolatsga.org/iro.html along with many other interesting things.

perhaps firaxis could answer why they chose the capital city name. seems odd. but the souix names from civ ii are mostly english translations and only have "native" flavor for 20th century educated "immigrants" like most of us.

the link above has a long list of village names for different peoples belonging to the iroquois nation. adding those to the list of cities (or replacing them) would be a good choice (IMNSHO).

anyway, it is good that the game is adaptable, no?

eewolf

	14-06-2002 10:57									#8
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The real question is why where the Iroquois included when the Inca or Maya weren't...

	14-06-2002 15:54									#9
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oh, so Iroquois is really based on a slur, greeeeeeeeat, now i'll get flamed by the OTers for saying it.

	14-06-2002 16:31									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The real question is why where the Iroquois included when the Inca or Maya weren't...

*sigh*

Don't start that again.

	14-06-2002 16:33									#11
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quote: Originally posted by eewolf i think that a fair job was done for city names for the iroquois (actually the "iroquois" people called themselves Haudenosaunee. the algonquin called them the Iroqu, a slur meaning rattlesnake, and the french added the ending).

Actually the origin of the word 'iroquois' could be a little different.
The rattlesnake story is popular, no doubt spread by the French, but the truth is that the word 'irokwa' (same pronounciation as 'iroquois' in French), in the language of the Haudenosaunee, means 'they who smoke' which is a rather accurate description. The word was used for them by the Hurons (iroquoian language) when the French first heard about them, but by that time the French had already named another tribe 'tobacco nation' (the Petun) so they made up something else.

	14-06-2002 16:38									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The real question is why where the Iroquois included when the Inca or Maya weren't...

Nah, we shouldn't give the Americans all of North America on a platter!

IMHO they should have included Iroquois, Maya and Tiahuanaco (which includes the Inca rule), and dumped the Aztecs who had very little merit in comparison.

	14-06-2002 20:29									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Actually the origin of the word 'iroquois' could be a little different. The rattlesnake story is popular, no doubt spread by the French, but the truth is that the word 'irokwa' (same pronounciation as 'iroquois' in French), in the language of the Haudenosaunee, means 'they who smoke' which is a rather accurate description. The word was used for them by the Hurons (iroquoian language) when the French first heard about them, but by that time the French had already named another tribe 'tobacco nation' (the Petun) so they made up something else.

do you have some links or references for this? i love history and digging in to separate the myths and facts (not always easy or possible). i will now be searching myself for more data about the Haudenosaunee and the origins of the name Iroquois.

you seem to be quite well read on these subjects. that is only going to lead you to trouble, you know.

	14-06-2002 22:06									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Actually the origin of the word 'iroquois' could be a little different. The rattlesnake story is popular, no doubt spread by the French, but the truth is that the word 'irokwa' (same pronounciation as 'iroquois' in French), in the language of the Haudenosaunee, means 'they who smoke' which is a rather accurate description. The word was used for them by the Hurons (iroquoian language) when the French first heard about them, but by that time the French had already named another tribe 'tobacco nation' (the Petun) so they made up something else.

Are you spreading this bunk here, too? ALL native tribes use(d) tobacco, how can that be an appropriate name for any particular tribe? And why would the french 'spread a story' about the name origin - which they likely used for a long time before even knowing what it meant?

The insult of "snake" is the rightly accepted name.

	14-06-2002 22:07									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Nah, we shouldn't give the Americans all of North America on a platter! IMHO they should have included Iroquois, Maya and Tiahuanaco (which includes the Inca rule), and dumped the Aztecs who had very little merit in comparison.

The Inca were not a tiahuanacan people...

	14-06-2002 22:10									#16
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dp

Last edited by Marquis de Sodaq on 14-06-2002 at 22:59

	14-06-2002 22:11									#17
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Could any of the Lakota cities/towns you name actually be considered as such?

Most are either battle sites or camp locations. So yes, they were towns, but used for only half of the year.

	14-06-2002 23:03									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq ALL native tribes use(d) tobacco, how can that be an appropriate name for any particular tribe?

So how did the Petun get their name?
And didn't all the native tribes know rattlesnakes, too?

quote: The insult of "snake" is the rightly accepted name.

We already know that you like to insult people, you don't have to show it every time.

	14-06-2002 23:09									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq The Inca were not a tiahuanacan people...

The Inca were not a people, period.
(Parts of) several peoples were united under the Inca rule, and they were largely the same tribes that were united under the dynasties that went before, in largely the same area, with largely the same culture. The differences between the several dynasties in both Egypt and China are larger, yet we have no trouble recognizing them as part of the same civilization.

	14-06-2002 23:24									#20
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quote: Originally posted by eewolf do you have some links or references for this? i love history and digging in to separate the myths and facts (not always easy or possible). i will now be searching myself for more data about the Haudenosaunee and the origins of the name Iroquois. [quote]you seem to be quite well read on these subjects. that is only going to lead you to trouble, you know.

I know
Ignorance is abundantly present, to begin with at Firaxis.

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dgarneau/indian7.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/iro/ibr/ibr.htm

	14-06-2002 23:57									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah We already know that you like to insult people

Now, now, only you.

(we sound like a couple that just went thru a bitter divorce... )

	15-06-2002 00:11									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah I know Ignorance is abundantly present, to begin with at Firaxis. http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dgarneau/indian7.htm http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/iro/ibr/ibr.htm

thank you. i have been doing some digging around myself and had found one of those links. now that this subject has been injected into my brain i know i will be at the library this weekend.

i found this about salamanca: it is the only u.s. city owned by an indian tribe, the Seneca, part of the Iroquois Nations. the land has been leased. this brings into question why it should be the capital city in civ IMHO.

as far as the origins of "Iroquois", looks like there is a difference of opinions out there. as usual. it may be a little off topic here (city names) so i may let it rest here.

proposed changes in civ ptw:
change the Iroquois name to Haudenosaunee (after all, it is their own name)
remove salamanca as the capital (and use what? not sure. each tribe had villages and each had its own importance. this points to one of the glaring problems with creating a game which purports to track "civilization" with only one track. the idea of a capital city is maybe not germane to some native american cultures, eh?)

for civ iv: different and separate possible tech/cultural advancement tracks.

	15-06-2002 01:42									#23
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See my post above about Salamanca (Bucktooth).
Onondaga is the true capital. It's where the league's council meets were held, and where the sacred wampums were kept (and are kept again, those that could be recovered).

I have no objections against the name Iroquois. It's how we know them, and they frequently use the name themselves (another reason why it cannot be an insultive name).
If we were to use only the names peoples originally had for themselves, we would run into trouble cuz maybe a quarter of them would all be called 'The People' (and Haudenosaunee isn't even the original name anyway).

	15-06-2002 02:09									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq Most are either battle sites or camp locations. So yes, they were towns, but used for only half of the year.

Battle sites and impermanent camp sites are towns? Sounds like a fairly loose definition of a town to me.

	15-06-2002 03:09									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah See my post above about Salamanca (Bucktooth). Onondaga is the true capital. It's where the league's council meets were held, and where the sacred wampums were kept (and are kept again, those that could be recovered).

thank you again. i agree with your assessment here, salamanca (bucktooth) is hardly a good choice for the cultural center for the Iroquois. i have made the city name change for myself to Onondaga.

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah I have no objections against the name Iroquois. It's how we know them, and they frequently use the name themselves (another reason why it cannot be an insultive name). If we were to use only the names peoples originally had for themselves, we would run into trouble cuz maybe a quarter of them would all be called 'The People' (and Haudenosaunee isn't even the original name anyway).

i can see this. however, using the name themselves is EVIDENCE that it is not an insult, but doesn't falsify it. i have not looked over the other evidence yet and i doubt it will be definitive. please bash me with as much evidence as you can on this.
my reason for using Haudenosaunee was from these items which i have read:
it means "People Building a Long House"
[URL=http://www.sixnations.org/]
which is supposed to represent the five original tribes of the confederacy forming a "longhouse" west-east across the land. this would indicate that the name was born when the confederacy was born (or close to it). studies by barbara mann and jerry fields (toledo university) would put this at 1142AD.
[URL=http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/DatingIC.html]
anyway, that seemed like a good enough reason to use the name for me.

	15-06-2002 03:53									#26
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The Sioux names many times happened to fit the description of their location.

	15-06-2002 13:16									#27
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Well, as a Lakota, I am biased and wished they would have kept the Sioux. Especially since we had "Mounted Warrior" (after the 1600s) and the Iroquois did not.
I went through the process of changing the City and GL list to reflect my tastes.
Also, I just thought I'd point out that the word Sioux is also a corruption (by the French). Sioux is short for nadouéssioux, from Ottawa naadowesiwag, which IIRC means "little snakes."
Lakota just means allies.

	15-06-2002 19:31									#28
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Yes, I know.
But I've always wondered: whose allies?
And you're right, the Mounted Warrior should be the Sioux UU, the Iroquois didn't have mounted troops.
It seems that Firaxis have promised a second expansion with another set of civs, so who knows? Maybe more Amerind tribes will make their appearance after all.

	15-06-2002 19:58									#29
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It would be good if they (or we) could straighten it out.

	15-06-2002 21:50									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Winterlord Well, as a Lakota, I am biased and wished they would have kept the Sioux. Especially since we had "Mounted Warrior" (after the 1600s) and the Iroquois did not. I went through the process of changing the City and GL list to reflect my tastes.

If you haven't, would you mind either posting your changes here, or emailing them to me, please? I would be interested in the changes you made.