13-06-2002 10:03									#1
	Pollution and airbases Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

No pollutions skulls appear on airbase fields.
My question is: If all the terrain of a city is surrounded by airbases, will pollution disappear for that city? (you won't need solar plants and mass transits any more)
And if the city is nuked? Will there be skulls?

	13-06-2002 10:30									#2
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"No pollutions skulls appear on airbase fields."

This is news to me. Why would this be true? If it is true, then the possible ramifications you suggest are fascinating. What is the claim based on? I don't spend much time in games where airbases are available, so I wouldn't know.

	13-06-2002 10:40									#3
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Very interesting - and highly credible -- we have observed elsewhere that the code for airbases seems to be a truncated form of the code for city - and cities don't get polluted.

Perhaps it's a good thing that most players outlaw airbases within city limits after all (I have always argued they form a credible engineer upgrade).

SG[1]

	13-06-2002 10:41									#4
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... and Ramses - this time I think you hit paydirt!!

SG[1]

	13-06-2002 19:27									#5
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Excellent job, ramses! Now for the hard part of the test: If you don't have all tiles airfielded, does the airfield coverage reduce the chances of getting pollution in the city radius in proportion to the percent coverage, or does it just cause all the pollution to appear on the non-airfield tiles?

	13-06-2002 21:29									#6
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Yes, Ramses, you've finally said something new. Good work man.

	13-06-2002 23:04									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It takes an engineer two turns to clean up pollution. It also takes an engineer two turns to build an airbase. Would building the airbase remove existing pollution from the tile, while also providing all the buggy benefits that airbases provide?

	14-06-2002 02:14									#8
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Hmmmmmm. Hafta try it in a game… just to see if it works, of course.

I agree with you SG[1], there really ought to be more than one upgrade to farming in the modern era. Grain production 100 years ago was 20 bushels/acre, and today it is 5 times that with European methods and 10 times that in the American wheat belt (different hybrids, more aggressive chemical pesticide and fertilizer use).

Civ can't really go that far, but it does 'splain why urbanization has gone from 10% to 90% in the same period in developed countries.

	14-06-2002 02:53									#9
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this is interesting...going to try this out as soon as possible...

(although it strange,I thought pollution had its own bit while airport= farmland+mines)

Shade

	14-06-2002 05:41									#10
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Airbases also got the railroad flag. That means, you can move units over airbased fields without building roads or railroads ais if they have been build. Try it.

	14-06-2002 07:40									#11
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Ramses...we do know that. You might check the Great Library some time, to see the current state of knowledge.

	14-06-2002 13:42									#12
	Pollution and airbases Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by ramses II. No pollutions skulls appear on airbase fields. My question is: If all the terrain of a city is surrounded by airbases, will pollution disappear for that city? (you won't need solar plants and mass transits any more) And if the city is nuked? Will there be skulls?

first I have a little question: What version are you speaking of?I've been testing a little last night(civ 2.42) and nothing what was decribed above happened.

I cheated a game and first build a city and covered every square in the cityradius with only airbases,then send a nuke on the city ,this is the result:

	14-06-2002 13:46									#13
	second try Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

cleaned up the pollution(with cheat) and covered every citysquare by checking all(except the pollution) improvements(irrigation,farmland/mine,road,RR,fortress,airbase)
and again nuked the city:this is the result:

Attachment: nukeairb2.jpg
This has been downloaded 78 time(s).

	14-06-2002 13:48									#14
	3e try Suffering from ads?

cleared one square of the airbase and cheated 2 engineers on that square...then I 'let them build the airbase--> pollution just stayed in place

Attachment: nukeairb3.jpg
This has been downloaded 77 time(s).

	14-06-2002 13:50									#15
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I guess those trials suggest that it does not work.

	14-06-2002 13:56									#16
	conclusion Increase the size of your Attachments

my conclusion in this case would be that (in case of nuclear fallout) the skulls are totally unrelated to the airbases...
*building airbases doe not clean up pollution
*airbases do not prevent nuclear fallout skulls

but on the other hand
* airbases are not destroyed by nuking a city
* when the airbase and fortress flag are checked in the cheatmode,the airbase will be build and the fortress-flag will be errased

(PS: afterward with the screenshots the choice of civ wasn't the best one, purple A's aren't really clear to see)

something that still might be checked is the effect of city-pollution...didn't have the time to do this.
all testing happened with this save:

Attachment: nukesandairbases.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	15-06-2002 22:04									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Maybe the concerning flag is overridden by cheating.
My CIV-Version is 2.42.
I never noticed pollution on airbases in my games, and I play very often (nearly every day )

	15-06-2002 22:37									#18
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quote: Originally posted by ramses II. Maybe the concerning flag is overridden by cheating. My CIV-Version is 2.42. I never noticed pollution on airbases in my games, and I play very often (nearly every day )

try the above save and remove all pollutioncleaning infrastructure from the city and wait some turns...


Shade

	16-06-2002 00:41									#19
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I've played around with my save myself...it seems that polution caused by the city doesn't appear on terrain with Airports.
(to test I made 1/2 of ciyradius airbased and the other half not, and removed all improvements in the city wich could reduce pollution)
result after a few dozen turns and a GW --> the half without airbases is polluted entirely the other terrainsquares(with airport) don't have pollution.

Final conclusion:
* airbased squares don't get polluted by citypollution(ppl & production)
* airbased squares get polluted by nukes
* airbases don't get destroyed by nukes
* airbases override the fortressflag(in cheatmode)
* building an airbase doesn't clean up pollution.

Shade
[edit] forgot something in the conclusionlist[/edit]

Last edited by shade on 16-06-2002 at 14:43

	16-06-2002 14:33									#20
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Further to: "* airbases override the fortressflag(in cheatmode) "
I believe that airbases still act as Fortresses (in the sense that only one unit of a stack is killed at a time - but with no defensive bonus...

SG[1]

	19-06-2002 13:26									#21
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So I was right, but it wasn't me who found that out. The airbase-no pollution thing is known in German fora (Civilization Webring Forum and others), they've got some English speaking members, too. Many of them (Thoddy, Oedo, me and others) are members in this forum, too.
If all the city radius is covered with airbases, air defense is difficult. A plane can only move one field (hmmmm!).
But I think some stealth fighters at the edges of the city radius wouldn't cause unhappiness, they would be considered as units on fortifications. Am I right?

	20-06-2002 19:18									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Further to: "* airbases override the fortressflag(in cheatmode) " I believe that airbases still act as Fortresses (in the sense that only one unit of a stack is killed at a time - but with no defensive bonus... SG[1]

Correct on both counts.

Building a fortress on an airbase eliminates the latter. The reverse is also true (regular play, not cheat mode).

	20-06-2002 19:19									#23
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quote: Originally posted by ramses II. But I think some stealth fighters at the edges of the city radius wouldn't cause unhappiness, they would be considered as units on fortifications. Am I right?

Fighters never cause unhappiness, iirc.

Edit: unless on carriers? It's been a long time since I played into the modern era. Do they cause unhappiness if stationed on an airbase outside the city radius? I think not, but am not certain.

	21-06-2002 02:03									#24
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fighters do not cause unhappiness when out of cities. They can be in airbases far away from cities and on carriers. Bombers cause unhappiness even inside cities.