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Defiant
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WISCONSIN
Aug 1999
time: 05:20
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Then go find your site and whine over there, your whining is as negative to this site as if it where a NMR or failed GM. If you have exhausted all your ability to try and keep this running or return it to normality, you will do more good to this site by leaving.
Last edited by Defiant on 19-06-2002 at 22:15
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Defiant
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WISCONSIN
Aug 1999
time: 05:20
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Listen Captain Whiner,
They must not teach you to hear in the "down there" section of our states. For the fifth time now, Orange said for CGN1, he had a guy to GM, so I turned it over, is that getting through that 3" skull plating.
And your perpetual pissing and moaning doesn't help, the site is not good now, no **** sherlock, but ranting  around like a nuttcase doesn't help, do you have a solution? If not, let Orange1 try and and maybe starting from the basics with a few capable players is the only way to jump start this site. It can't hurt so if you want to help, great, you can be an extreme asset to this site, if not please don't hinder it by pissing and moaning about it. We have two guys from the graves showing some interest, Thuc............. and Cyber, just maybe Orange1 has the right idea, hell any idea right now is better than none.
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RUFFHAUS 8
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The Old Dominion
Jan 2000
time: 00:20
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Interesting to see how weak your argument is when you need to resort to name calling isn't it?
You were replaced as GM for CGN Dip because your performance there was so pathetic that the game was in danger of not being completed. Colony Pod (Italy) resigned from the game to take over as GM because it was taking you weeks to adjudicate a simple turn on a standard map. Again another wonderful example to betting. Small wonder that other games have taken a similar path. Say it six times then and maybe it'll sound better. The bottom line is you bailed on us, and not just once.
Call it pissing and moaning all you want. Three and four week delays KILL games. That's a plain and simple fact. I spoke up because I care. If you want to encourage the crap, go right ahead, but this is what is killing the club.
If Cyber Gnu wants to come back and play, great. He always turned in his moves. Thucydidies never completed a game and has NMR'd aplenty. Maybe his life is more stable, and maybe he's orth giving a chance again. But he's no pillar of reliability based on past performance, and you know it. And regardless, it's going to take more than a gunboat game to get things going again.
I have a solution. I have advocated it. Move the games along! Ironically this draws crap from you every time (maybe because this time you cannot benefit from the NMRs). I don't want NMRs either. But they beat the hell out of three-four weeks of wondering will the game ever get underway again, not to mention this disruption in player-player relationships from apathy, paranoia, and plain confusion.
As for Dip 50, it's already been brought, 'Emperor!' That's nine builds to the Confederacy. Geee, where will they all go? Where will next year's nine go? Nice try but to paraphase the Soup Nazi, ' No draw for you!'
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Defiant
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WISCONSIN
Aug 1999
time: 05:20
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That's right,
I was busy and the moves were coming out later than they should and Orange said he had a guy ready it went with him, and I don't really give a rats ass what you think and as for NMR's you have a short memory as well as an inventive mind, you have done very well due to NMR's, France and Holland(50), Napoleon's circumstance-after you stabbed him he quit, happen again in the world game I GM's whiched you soloed and there are a few other, the modern game where you were Poland, all of Europe seemed to NMR, in African you given Gerwald's SC's for Christ sakes.
But I forgot, when you win, its due to implicit negotiations, spetacular strategics, you never get any benefits from NMR's only the rest of us, that's the only way we can win, right?
Again if you have any positive ways in whcih to help, I am sure we are all ears, but if you just want to b!tch, do it somewhere else.
And as for the name calling, when you treat people with respect when responding to these threads, then I will do the same, Democrat.
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RUFFHAUS 8
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The Old Dominion
Jan 2000
time: 00:20
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Defiant, if you don't give a rat's ass, then shut up. Otherwise debate the topics at hand. Calling people names when you start losing an argument isn't going to earn you respect with anyone. Nor is using a political party affiliation as a means of delivering an insult. Oh yes, I get your drift, but you're only embarassing yourself.
You QUIT games here. This is a fact. You are a major contributor to what is currently wrong with the ADC. If you're now able to give the club a committment, that would be a positive step. I have offered suggestions, which are what you call whing/*****ing/whatever. The reason it's whining and *****ing is beacause things suck. The suck out loud. And they need to be improved. Sugar-coating it and pretending that everything is okay isn't getting it done. Pointing the finger at me for calling it out isn't going to help either.
The way to help, to fix the problems here is to move games along. But you won't have any of that because it isn't benefitting you. And please don't bring Domination Dip into this.... That was just another game, which we had to call early because you couldn't do the adjudication on time. Everyone got bored of it, and they called it early, not without some regret if I recall.
Read the posts, Defiant. I said I don't like NMRs at all. Regardless of whether I benefit from the or not. My point is that you are full of complaints about the policy of NMRing an absent player EXCEPT when it benefits you.Then you are notably silent. I just want the games to be played. If replacement players cannot be fount, then the absent nations need to be NMRd. This is an unfortunate circumstance which is part of the game regardless of who benefits from it the most. However, in the absense of committed players there is no choice but to go on or abandon the games. Accepting consistent 3-4 week gaps between moves is a sure fire way to destoy a game.
If you wish to pick apart results from my previous games, that's your perogative. It's got nothing to do with the subject at hand. But then again your position is very weak on that, so you insert some other angle and manipilate in an attempt to be relevant.
My jibes at your Hagakure victory are intended to be light hearted fun, which you appear to be incapable of reckognizing. Maybe I should let them drop, but your hypocracy is so sickening when you claimed to be too "busy" to honor certain other committments and QUIT games on us, but had plenty of time for Hagakure Dip. Well good for you, you won one. Now maybe you can channel some of that energy into commitment to your current games, that is until they start going poorly for you, right?
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Defiant
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WISCONSIN
Aug 1999
time: 05:20
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How many years have you and I played at this site and in all those times how many times can you recall me NMR or abandoning GM'ing, I think one regardless of what you call CGN which at the time you said wasn't even a site game, it was Frontier. So your exaggeration of a "major" problem to this site is a little bit strong, don't you think.
Of coarse nobody likes to win because of NMR's but as you said they are a part of the game you win some games because of it and so do others. And, it was lighted hearted the first 50 times I heard it, it gets a little old after that. A soloist is supposed to give a little juicing to and especially to a competitor, makes it a little bit more fun.
Domination was just that, Dominated by you, it was plagued by NMR's like every other game and the only reason they got bored is because it was enivitable that you were going to solo, NMR's or no NMR's and it is probably the only large map game that had such a decisive victor as a nation and it was GM's by me, so break that large map record and then talk to me. If you can find me another game of that size and length of time with a decisive victor please list it here.
And your (concern) over this site is admirable however pointing out the obvious flaws and problems is not a productive, they are problems we already know, the people are the same so yelling at them will probably do no good at this point, we need not only a new infusion of blood but a fresh start where we judge who should GM and play with your listing, maybe it's time to update that, if you still want to be around, if not, the rest of us who are interested will try to keep this site alive if we can.
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Chazzy
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Stevens Point
Mar 2000
time: 05:20
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Hey fellas, not to interfere with your debate here but I am going to throw my name in the ring to pick up the GM'ing of the Apolyton championship game. I will be able to adjudicate the moves for you and I will try my hand at map making, with abit of help from Defiant. I think I did a fairly good job of keeping my Classic game running , and would like a shot at getting this game completed. That is as long as there is not any objections.
As for the rest of your arguments, you both have some valid points. I think we need to address them all , and Orange_1 posting this thread is a good start. Believe it or not the two of you having this heated argument is good , Althouigh I hope Ruffy doesn't really believe that we all suck  as I would really like to see this site get back to where it was when I started playing here.
I would like to think that we all share some of the blame here. Because these games have taken so long , I think most of us ( maybe not all ) feel a bit mad and confused. I didn't know if I wanted to stick around either , and have talked with Defiant about this. I went and started playing at the " Bounced " site. I should have kept my commitment to Apolyton also, but have found it increasingly harder to play here when the moves don't advance. Oh well, I am dragging on so here is my proposal;
We start a few new games that are GM selected, only those who the GM feels comfrtable with.
I suggest keeping the maps small enough to house the few who are committed to the game.
The games that are currently running take a vote and decide if they can continue or must be called . This sucks as I have been in games and done well only to have a draw called because of lack of interest, but I see no alternative.
GM's use a policy for NMR's and than stick to it, as said by both Ruffy and Defiant , they suck but are sometimes necessary. If one of "US" ( we're all in the club guys ) NMR's don't ask them back.
Lastly, lets try and keep this civil guys. I think there is enough of us to keep this club alive, but it will take some work. I think we have finally hit bottom , what with everyone arguing, so now is the time to get committments from those who are interested in playing.
My offer stands to help out with the Championship game if wanted. If not , than good luck to all. 
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the_orange1
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Scotland
Feb 2001
time: 05:20
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Bravo Chazzy, some rational sense at last!! I would welcome you as GM for the tourney game, we have to get on with this again.
We are all to blame in part for the demise of the club. But it can be saved if we tighten up the rules and all put some work into it. I try to keep my games running as quickly as possible, but I can't always get the adjudications out as quickly as I'd like (in future, I will GM less games at the same time). We must weed out the really uncommitted players - they are the biggest problem - and if they are consistently crap then we don't want them. So, PROVE it or LOSE it. I'm not talking 1 NMR and you're out - I've NMRed a couple of times, it does happen from time to time - but consistent NMRs and you're out. For instance, the 2-in-a-row or 3-in-a-game rule should be extended from getting kicked out the game to getting kicked out the club. Or we use a system like on 'Bounced' where you have a commitment rating and the GM sets the minimum necessary for a new game - this way, the GM and players know the risk they take by playing the game with less committed players (I'm happy to work out a system based on the historical games if I can get someone to help me).
Replacement positions should be filled as quickly as possible and this means the GM has an invited stand-by (or 2) from the beginning who can take them up immediately rather than waiting on someone to help out (this worked in African dip, where I invited End Is Forever to take over S.Africa, thus ensuring a quick turnaround). If the position can't be filled by standby, then it goes into civil disorder and we get on with the game.
I completely agree with Chazzy that we should concentrate on our committed players, meaning GM-selected games, and small maps/simple variants, at least until we get some new people on board.
I also agree that NMR rules have to be tightened once again. Ruff is right that these are better than long delays and it will help us weed out the uncommitted players. I have tended to be somewhat lenient in accepting late results myself, but will step up the pressure now. If you miss the 24hr grace period, you NMR.
And as for you pair - Defiant and Ruff - wtf????? I'm glad we're getting these issues out in the open, but can we concentrate on coming up with solutions to the problems rather than pointing fingers and name-calling. You two are the most committed players on the site and both have contributed huge amounts to this club. But don't let that go to waste now - we can save this place if we cooperate, so please sort it out....Ruff, nobody in this club wants you to leave, please help us save it.
The future lies in the core of committed players/GMs we have (prob. not 9, but a few at least) and attracting new players - in NSN, we got 3 new players (november Adam, SITS & ColDark) who were keen, enthusiastic (and handed orders in on time) and hopefully will be back for more. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, invite them into a new game, if they NMR consistently, they're out and won't be invited again. If they continue to play the way they have in this game, that's 3 new committed players we have.
Finally, a note on what I do next. I will start a new game when NSN is finished. This will either be on a standard map with standard rules or an Ancient Med map with standard rules. I will invite the most committed players to join and will nominate a stand-by. NMR rules will be strict.
Would there be any interest from the committed players about me doing this new game with a faster turnaround time and with strict NMR rules? For instance, 48hr deadlines (excluding weekends when it's difficult for me to map-make). This would certainly keep dipping intense.
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SnowFire
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New York City, NY
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
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Thucydidies never completed a game and has NMR'd aplenty
Maybe that would be because by the time you got here, Thucy was just about to dissapear. He was an excellent player before then, and I would be fully willing to think it was a one-time thing.
As for you two's complaints, I notice that games on world maps were brought up quite a bit. Unfortunately, a natural side-effect of world maps is that they are by nature slow and long, meaning that drop-outs are going to occur more than in fast standard maps. The strategy can also get weird, because Diplomacy is not really built for situations with lots and lots of SCs.
So what I'd like to point out most about the changes from now to then is that we just don't have enough players and games right now. Back in the old days, there were a reasonable amount of dropouts, but there were always replacements ready and new games were starting all the time. Heck, too often. This was right after the S&D had split off from the OT, and there was still a strong supply of posters from both here. How often do you see Stefu in a game these days? Or Mao? Or Imran Siddiqui?
Now, as it happens Mao is gone, and Imran, well, wasn't the most reliable player in the world, but the point is that the main problem is lack of players.
However, this is not a decree from above. If this should ever change, then things would be different (duh!). I'm perfectly happy with a slow period right now, myself. It does mean that games that would be ruined without a replacement and are generally risky probably aren't a wise idea. It also doesn't mean that Apolyton Diplomacy is ruined.
And RUFFHAUS & Defiant, the key to getting along with people is simply trying to half the time. Might I suggest that course of action?
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Defiant
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WISCONSIN
Aug 1999
time: 05:20
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Snowy,
You are the club President(correct?) so you do need to get a handle on this. I am not talking about slow time, Ruff and I are talking about responsibilty, there are some players here that really do take playing or GM'ing lightly and it forces the rest to want to disappear or follow suit.
That is why I think all games until futher notice should be by invitation and the person wanting to GM should be approved by you so we don't have El Awrence starting two games, one being the Championship game and then no follow through. At least then we can blame you.
There has to be some kind of structure, and we don't seem to have it.
I know you are busy at times, so maybe we need a VP to oversee all games and make sure they are run on time, that way between the two of you, somebody can always be checking on the progress of this site. It will be hard in the beginning but once the irresponsible members get weeded out, it will get easier and easier and other players hopefully will want to join the site because the rep will be better, only a suggestion.
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SnowFire
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New York City, NY
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
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It would be fascinating if I were president, because that would be like a democrat declaring himself king. Remember, I was one of the people who wasn't a fan of starting up a "club" at all and certainly wouldn't have wanted to be "president."
Now LS1 was elected president of the OT in a very silly election thread a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, but that doesn't exactly count.
As for "checking," I mean, I hate to say it, but if somebody wants to run a game off of Apolyton's forums, I can't see a reason to deny them that right. And if we did, I think MarKG would have every right to come sniffing his nose around here asking who gave us the sole rights to these fourms. Now do I think some GMs are more reliable than others? Absolutely. I just try not to play in those games. This is a decision the players have to make, not something that can be legislated from on high.
And as for the Championship, I'd like to point out that I offered to run it, btw.  Nothing against EA, I"m sure he's been validly busy.
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Dr. Nick
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Mola mazo!
Oct 2000
time: 01:20
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I will do a mea culpa and then leave. I wanted to continue playing but I had lost a lot of motivation. I was tired, schoolwork was piling. GMing wasn't that much of a task on a standard map. Then I started getting more work, got involved in a play, directing and acting. The last three months have been hell. And I admit it, it was my fault, I should not have taken on the Tournament Game. I shoud not have. And I am ashamed I did and acted like shyte. Perhaps I should not have even started Apocralypse either. But I love the game, I enjoy the game, and I didn't want it to die either.
But we all need to do a mea culpa here. I had to chase some people to the end of the world for moves on occasion. I hate NMRs but hell, I was a green GM, I still am, and on personal perception, I'd rather wait than have one or two NMRs. Then again, that's my personal perception. And then people having babies like rabbits and getting married and going on stag nights and going on trips.
It's almost as if (without relieving myself of any other fault, because I have a lot of fault in the fact that a bunch of games suffered because I lost motivation and dropped out or simply faded away) we've all been up to the neck with stuff to do offline. Busy and naturally tired. And it's shyte that it's happened to us all practically simoultaneously.
Again, I apologise and I will try and get Apocralypse running while I find a replacement GM. I won't promise a date or anything, but I'll see if I chase players for information. Orange looks like he's about to bail out, or VGR might be interested in doing it, dunno.
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19-06-2002 12:35
And quit *****ing like some old dirty vetera... oops... 
you are old dirty veterans 
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