13-06-2002 22:31									#1
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I think as other nations progress in technology, barbarians should too. I think they should be able to build simple foot units, the ones that don't need resources. I think when one civ could build infantry the barbarians should be able to too. I think this because I believe barbarians are paralell to a type of people now: terrorists. Barbarians are just like ancient day Al Quaeda fighters. It would be kind of fun to wage a war on terror in the modern ages. What do you think?

	13-06-2002 22:37									#2
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There were 'guerillas', 'raiders' such in civ 1. It gave you a reason to keep every city fortified. I agree there should be something, Im not sure what though.

	13-06-2002 22:58									#3
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It would be interesting but by 0-500 AD most of the planet, if not all, is settled - so there wouldn't be much in the way of barbarian (guerrilla) uprisings.

However...if this were implemented it would be nice to be able to gift such units to barbarians near someone else's country.

Okay, now I've got it: when each civ discovers nationalism a specific guerrilla movement (barbarian tribe) is assigned to that civ. The guerrillas can spawn in unsettled, as well as settled territory. After nationalism they just mingle in with the rest of society, untill they launch an operation and strike. We can then right click on one of our foot soldier units and select from:

gift unit to IRA (England)
gift unit to Burgundians (France)
gift unit to Sotho (Zululand)

I just like the idea of being able to support rebels inside another country. Now, if the nuetral colored foot unit Firaxis is apparently preparing works well it might negate everything I just wrote.

Okay, that's brainstorming in the middle of a post for you.

	13-06-2002 23:16									#4
	Re: new barbarian idea Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod What do you think?

Great idea.

	14-06-2002 05:45									#5
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I think the Barbarians in Civ3 are too weak, even on Raging on Monarch level. Encampments spawn single units, and occasionally spawn "huge uprisings" with about 20-25 units. Barbarians also cannot destroy or capture a city. There's a limited choice of barbarian units (two land and one sea) which also weakens them.

Here's how I would improve barbarians to make them more dangerous (yes, I am a Barbarian-loving masochist):

* In addition to single units and huge uprisings, Encampments should also spawn small bands of barbarians with about 5-10 units. These would be spawned if a new encampment is left alone for about 20-30 turns, and then about every 20-30 turns after that. Higher levels of barb activity causes these bands to be larger and spawned more frequently.

* There should be additional Barbarian land and sea units. I think it will work well if there's a foot unit (Warrior), advanced foot unit (Swordsman or Archer), mounted unit (Horseman) and advanced mounted unit (Knight). You won't see barb Knights until very late, but the others may appear fairly early.

For sea units, the basic Barbarian sea unit is the Galley. There would also be an advanced sea unit (Privateer) that would be spawned in oceans where the Fog of War conceals them, and if most land squares are out of the Fog of War. Then we can have good numbers of actual Barbarian pirates in the game during the era of sail!

* When barbarians invade a city, they should be able to destroy it. A good way to do this would be for size-1 cities without improvements to be razed, and a Barbarian encampment placed on that square. A city would not be razed until all improvements have been destroyed, its treasury looted once and its population killed down to 1 point. Encampments that were city sites would spawn more barbarians at two or three times the rate of a normal encampment.

I would love to see this in the expansion - what do you think?

	14-06-2002 05:52									#6
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The simplest way to get around the "There's no fog of war in the late game so no barbarians" problem would be to allow them to spawn in any square that is at least... 2 or 3 tiles from a city, so they don't just spring up on your doorstep, but they don't need fog of war to spawn.

	14-06-2002 07:21									#7
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For something you can do NOW, go to the Editor, Difficulty Levels tab. At the difficulty(ies) you play, lower the "Attack bonus Against Barbarians" to 0%.

Now you will at least give the Barbs a fair fight, even if they still only have one defense.

	14-06-2002 08:08									#8
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quote: Originally posted by wrylachlan The simplest way to get around the "There's no fog of war in the late game so no barbarians" problem would be to allow them to spawn in any square that is at least... 2 or 3 tiles from a city, so they don't just spring up on your doorstep, but they don't need fog of war to spawn.

Or let them spawn inside any sqaure that is not inside a city radius. Exception: squares surrounded by city radii on any 2 opposite sides should not spawn barbarians. This simple rule will prevent barbarians from spawning in isolated, enclosed squares that are not in a city radius (and is probably the rule used when calculating cultural borders).

	14-06-2002 16:25									#9
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quote: Originally posted by star mouse Or let them spawn inside any sqaure that is not inside a city radius. Exception: squares surrounded by city radii on any 2 opposite sides should not spawn barbarians. This simple rule will prevent barbarians from spawning in isolated, enclosed squares that are not in a city radius (and is probably the rule used when calculating cultural borders).

Have certain areas of the map uninhabitable (at least until engineering) and allow barbarians to spawn there. For instance, desert regions or tundra.

	14-06-2002 16:42									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe For something you can do NOW, go to the Editor, Difficulty Levels tab. At the difficulty(ies) you play, lower the "Attack bonus Against Barbarians" to 0%. Now you will at least give the Barbs a fair fight, even if they still only have one defense.

You can also change the basic unit (default is warrior), advanced unit (default is horseman), and naval unit (galley by default) in the editor.


I plan on doing so to give barbarians their own specific units. The Huskarl to replace the warrior, and the Tarkan to replace the Horseman. Give them either increased attack or increased mobility, and that, coupled with the barbarian attack bonus set to 0% should make them into something much deadlier than the mere nuisance they present at the moment.

	14-06-2002 17:12									#11
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I like the idea of having Barbarian technology eveolving the same way as the Civs'. Starmouse : we're thinking somehow the same way... I made a very long post about an overhaul of the idea of Barbarians here : http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=45142
Does it sound good ?

	14-06-2002 18:07									#12
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quote: Originally posted by star mouse * There should be additional Barbarian land and sea units. I think it will work well if there's a foot unit (Warrior), advanced foot unit (Swordsman or Archer), mounted unit (Horseman) and advanced mounted unit (Knight). You won't see barb Knights until very late, but the others may appear fairly early. For sea units, the basic Barbarian sea unit is the Galley. There would also be an advanced sea unit (Privateer) that would be spawned in oceans where the Fog of War conceals them, and if most land squares are out of the Fog of War. Then we can have good numbers of actual Barbarian pirates in the game during the era of sail!

Great idea! Barbarians are way too weak.

	14-06-2002 19:31									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I like the idea of having Barbarian technology eveolving the same way as the Civs'. Starmouse : we're thinking somehow the same way... I made a very long post about an overhaul of the idea of Barbarians ... Does it sound good ?

Having Barb "cities" does complicate the game a bit, especially when they are close together. I believe Barbarians should get all the techs that everyone knows a few turns after the last civ gets them, so they are one tech behind everyone else. As for units, they should be able to build any unit that doesn't require resources, but occasionally they can build a unit that requires resources (perhaps because they obtained the resources on the black market).

I have found that setting the Basic Barbarian to Archers and the Barbarian sea unit to Privateers makes for a good game. (Advanced barbarian is still Horsemen.) All three units have 2 attack and 1 defence.

	14-06-2002 22:21									#14
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I like the idea of privateers spawning from the fog of war in the ocean. But they can't carry units. Maybe even chances of privateers or galleons carrying 4 longbowmen. This can start when the first civ discovers Navigation. This would present a small but real threat into the early industrial age.

Then maybe when the first civ discovers replaceable parts, to represent the newly easy access to firearms, they will start dropping off riflemen instead of longbowmen.

	14-06-2002 23:13									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

As it is, barbarian "raid" of city extorts gold. It would be great if there was a chance (say 33 or 50%) that they would take the city as their own.